Are the receivers on the 37 and 40 mm launchers actually different? Could it be viewed similar to our restricted vs non depending on barrel length?
M203 Grenade Launcher Import
- Thread starter TopShelf97
- Start date
Are the receivers on the 37 and 40 mm launchers actually different? Could it be viewed similar to our restricted vs non depending on barrel length?
The Colt 37mm and LMT 37mm M203's that I have seen and handled in the past (stateside) were identical to the 40mm M203's, I think most or all are marked 40mm as well. The only difference is the barrel. Im not talking about the fake cheap knock off 37mm smooth bore m203(ish) copies you see all over the place (spikes etc). Those are completely different.
This is an example of a real colt M203 40mm (even marked 40mm receiver) with a smoothbore 37mm barrel make it a non NFA item in the US. The receiver IS a real Colt M203 40mm receiver.
h ttps://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-M203-37mm-Grenade-Launcher-for-M16-M4-AR15-p/r0811.htm
In the USA it didn't matter (and perhaps the ATF has changed its stance on that, im not 100% on the up on this) if it was a 40mm marked or capable M203 receiver as long as the barrel was a 37mm smooth bore and you DID not possess or fire anti personal rounds (its supposed to be a flare gun not a shotgun or grenade launcher) and did not possess or (obviously) install a 40mm rifled barrel on it (unsure about smoothbore but if its 40mm and accepts a 40mm GL round I think you're out of luck). If it met these criteria it was exempt from class 3 DD status as the ATF considers it to be a flare launcher and no longer a GL.
Here is an example of a US company selling non NFA non Class 3 real m203 receivers with no barrels:
h ttps://clydearmory.com/lmt-m203-40mm-3234.html
From the website:
Title 1 (non-NFA) receiver does not require a destructive device dealer to transfer. Barrel not included. Barrel-mounted receiver.
Please note- We can only sell a 40mm barrel after seeing an ATF-approved Form 1 for the receiver purchased. The buyer understands that the installation of a 40mm barrel without an ATF-approved Form 1 registering it as a destructive device is illegal, and assumes all liability for his actions.
That is for the US domestic law, nothing to do with rules in ITAR or the US state departments stance regarding the export of 40mm M203 receivers (with 40mm or 37mm barrels) and 40mm GL parts including exporting separate barrels from receivers. This also has nothing to do with controlled goods Canada's stance on these things. Canadian Businesses are supposed to be registered with Controlled goods to import and possess these types of GL's and the controlled items must be registered with controlled goods and stored according to the rules of the Controlled goods act. There are strict rules on who can have access to the controlled items and you are subject to periodic inspection. Only then can they be transferred to other businesses or individuals with a controlled goods licence. The US state department AFAIK only issues export licences for GL's for MIL/LE/Theatrical end users not for civilian end users but hey Ill admit I dont know for sure for all circumstances.
Controlled Goods Canada also seems to take an interest in the importation of any kind of deactivated GL, rocket launcher, AT weapon, etc that is under their jurisdiction. I believe they have taken the same stance as the RCMP when it comes to deactivated guns. They consider them to be live during import and must be imported the same as a live weapon of whatever class it was in before deactivation. Business's would have a hard time coming up with a legitimate reason for importing a "live" RPG-7 for example, and saying you are importing it to deactivate to for retail apparently isn't a legitimate reason to them. This is why the cheap deactivated RPG's, Super Bazooka's, Carl G's etc in the USA don't make it up here, and if you do see them here they arent cheap... somebody snuck something in if its recent, or it could have legitimately came in before ITAR, from another country, or before controlled goods cared about this kind of old junk.
EDIT: I was talking about the last gen of LMT/COLT M203's... I found this newer one at brownells for example that is marked 37mm, and then I found this info:
"LMT just confirmed again that the brownells M203's are not interchangeable with 40mm barrels and the brownells 37mm barrels are not interchangeable with Mil spec M203's."
Looks like this one is made very similar to a legit LMT M203 but is marked 37mm with a 37mm smooth bore barrel and cant accept a 40mm barrel so in theory it MAY be ok for export/import..... it should not fall under the controlled goods act in Canada, not sure what the US side would say for export but im guessing no
h. ttps://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/duty-gear/safety-amp-warning-equipment/m203-37mm-launcher-prod118458.aspx
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Mike better keep that to himself. And even if he shuts his mouth, there are such things as sales records with dealers along with these supposed end user certificates some recent new owners say they signed. If LE wants they can find out who the dealers sold them to and if those buyers choose to claim they sold it at some gun show and they don't remember who the buyer was...well you admitted to illegally selling controlled goods to someone else who wasn't registered. If some agency decides they want them they will come looking and they will look until they find them. How much fun is having a GL you paid $4k cdn for (FYI they are well under 2k USD stateside and under $1500 USD for LE dealers), you cant take out of the house, you can't shoot it, you can't legally resell it, and you can't show anyone for fear of serious repercussions because its not registered? There is a post here on CGN about a guy in Toronto that was caught with one by LE and had to register or face consequences. Once they are registered with controlled goods you can only sell/transfer them to another business or person registered with controlled goods. You cant just register as an individual unless you possess a controlled goods regulated item and are registering to become compliant with the CGA ( I don't know if they even HAVE to allow you to register vs seizing said item(s) but they are allowing registration currently). This means if you want to sell it to someone they have to already be registered with controlled goods, they can't just register as an individual in order to buy your launcher. This will mean a very limited legal market. Hows that gonna go for resale value? Frankly I'm extremely surprised CGN admin allows the non CG registered ones to be sold on the EE due to liability and their stance on illegal sales.
Every comment or concern that was posted in one of the dealers threads regarding the legality of these launchers was deleted by the dealer, including posts imploring them to just call controlled goods and find out the law before acting. Nobody wanted to listen. Now this is where we are. Ask yourself how this makes any sense: If those launchers were exempt from the controlled goods act when sold by dealers why are owners now required to register them with controlled goods? All people seemed to care about when these went up for sale was the Non-restricted status given by the RCMP. Did anyone even bother to read the details of the FRT that said these may be governed by other agencies as well? This post isn't about fear mongering. Let me state, I don't know how these were exported, imported, why they were not registered with CG on import or if they actually were, what happened with importers or retailers selling them, or if the boogie man is coming for them. What I do know is controlled goods cares about these and owners of these GL's need to be aware of the legal requirements to owning them (and selling them). Or they can just delude themselves by saying "but it says non restricted in the frt!" - the very FRT the have never actually seen with their own eyes - and potentially face the consequences.
(For example the firearms act has laws that regulate ammunition, but that is not all.. there is a whole other agency involved NRCAN)
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...3-Launchers-Now-Shipping/page6?highlight=m203
Another thread discussing these:
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1870525-LMT-m203s?highlight=m203
and yet another thread saying the same stuff Im saying here, and this CGN user explains how to register if you currently possess a GL>
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...nade-launchers-etc?highlight=controlled+goods
FYI for the CGN internet lawyers that may have trouble connecting the dots while reading the law: A GRENADE LAUNCHER IS A PROJECTILE LAUNCHER
SCHEDULE
(Section 35)
Controlled Goods List
Section 2-2
Smooth-bore weapons with a calibre of 20 mm or more, other weapons or armament with a calibre greater than 12.7 mm (calibre 0.50 inches), projectors and accessories, as follows:
a Guns, howitzers, cannon, mortars, anti-tank weapons, projectile launchers, military flame throwers, rifles, recoilless rifles, smooth-bore weapons and signature reduction devices therefor, first manufactured after 1945, and the following components:
1 Frames or receivers;
2 Barrels; or
3 Breech closing mechanisms.
EXCEPTIONS
6 The following goods are not controlled goods:
(b) a firearm that has a calibre greater than 12.7 mm and is not a restricted firearm, other than a howitzer, mortar, anti-tank weapon, projectile launcher, flame thrower, recoilless rifle and their components;
This section pertains to the Regulation of Access to Controlled Goods, offenses and penalties:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/d-1/page-4.html#docCont
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- Location
- Calgary AB
So dealers can sell these to people as just non restricted guns with a PAL and not go through controlled good? How is that ok? Why didn't they have to but now the guys that were sold them as non restricted guns have to go through hassle of registration? What am I missing?
Heres a publicly available online copy of the form with the title "Instructions regarding the LMT M203" (link is still on a dealer advert, Im not posting anything confidential) that apparently went with the sale of the last launchers. I dont know what you call this its just a piece of white paper with a bunch of incorrect information on it, far from a legal document and sure doesn't look like an actual end user certificate. This is extremely bizarre and doesn't appear to be written by anyone in the legal profession but hey who says you require legal advice to write "Instructions"...
h ttps://4fafeht47q1bxk1f4er5qsqy-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/M203-Sales-Form.pdf
Right off the top this section is very incorrect.
These are exempt from Controlled
Goods Registration Program (CGRP) requirements INSIDE CANADA per Section 6 (b) unless a stand alone
stock or pistol grip is attached forming a Restricted Firearm.
First of all no, where did they come up with that information? Where is this supposed exemption for “in Canada” found? I have searched and searched and cannot find any reference to it in any of the related law. Even if such an exemption existed, how did they get around it for importation? Second of all attaching a stock or pistol grip to that launcher does not in itself change its status from non restricted to restricted, unless you have made a launcher that can fire by itself with an overall length of less than 26" (bla however many mm). As long as it meets the minimum legal length for a non restricted manually operated firearm it will remain non restricted.
Should the firearm be converted to Restricted classification, the firearm must be registered with the Canadian Firearms Registry, kept on
record, and the individual and/or organization holding it must be registered with CGRP
Controlled goods requirements for registration have nothing to do with the status of the grenade launcher under the firearms act, whether it is restricted or non restricted. Some GL's are restricted in the FRT, others are non restricted. If you have access, feel free to look up the FRT's for GL's that are standalone and have collapsible stocks like some of the HK models. They are listed as restricted in the FRT. Why? Cause the RCMP said so. Its their policy, not the law. Even if you pin the stocks open to make them over 26" the RCMP will not de-register those ones as they are listed as RESTRICTED in the FRT by the RCMP and they get to decide. That does not however mean that simply attaching a stand alone stock, or chassis to a non restricted gun turns it into another class of firearm (remember to maintain the legal overall minimum length). Regardless of their status in the firearms act, They both still fall under controlled goods.
Whats written in this paper makes no sense unless they were going by this section and stopped reading when it got to the part that says OTHER THAN A.... PROJECTILE LAUNCHER
the actual exemption as written in the law states:
6 The following goods are not controlled goods:
(b) a firearm that has a calibre greater than 12.7 mm and is not a restricted firearm, other than a howitzer, mortar, anti-tank weapon, projectile launcher, flame thrower, recoilless rifle and their components;
h ttps://4fafeht47q1bxk1f4er5qsqy-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/M203-Sales-Form.pdf
Right off the top this section is very incorrect.
These are exempt from Controlled
Goods Registration Program (CGRP) requirements INSIDE CANADA per Section 6 (b) unless a stand alone
stock or pistol grip is attached forming a Restricted Firearm.
First of all no, where did they come up with that information? Where is this supposed exemption for “in Canada” found? I have searched and searched and cannot find any reference to it in any of the related law. Even if such an exemption existed, how did they get around it for importation? Second of all attaching a stock or pistol grip to that launcher does not in itself change its status from non restricted to restricted, unless you have made a launcher that can fire by itself with an overall length of less than 26" (bla however many mm). As long as it meets the minimum legal length for a non restricted manually operated firearm it will remain non restricted.
Should the firearm be converted to Restricted classification, the firearm must be registered with the Canadian Firearms Registry, kept on
record, and the individual and/or organization holding it must be registered with CGRP
Controlled goods requirements for registration have nothing to do with the status of the grenade launcher under the firearms act, whether it is restricted or non restricted. Some GL's are restricted in the FRT, others are non restricted. If you have access, feel free to look up the FRT's for GL's that are standalone and have collapsible stocks like some of the HK models. They are listed as restricted in the FRT. Why? Cause the RCMP said so. Its their policy, not the law. Even if you pin the stocks open to make them over 26" the RCMP will not de-register those ones as they are listed as RESTRICTED in the FRT by the RCMP and they get to decide. That does not however mean that simply attaching a stand alone stock, or chassis to a non restricted gun turns it into another class of firearm (remember to maintain the legal overall minimum length). Regardless of their status in the firearms act, They both still fall under controlled goods.
Whats written in this paper makes no sense unless they were going by this section and stopped reading when it got to the part that says OTHER THAN A.... PROJECTILE LAUNCHER
the actual exemption as written in the law states:
6 The following goods are not controlled goods:
(b) a firearm that has a calibre greater than 12.7 mm and is not a restricted firearm, other than a howitzer, mortar, anti-tank weapon, projectile launcher, flame thrower, recoilless rifle and their components;
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What a frigging mess! I sure hope all of the people who originally "pooh-pooh'ed" Gutinater's warnings are now sitting up and paying rapt attention. I can definitey foresee some hefty fines for the importing company that resold those recent LMT launchers to non-CG-registered civilians....
Serves 'em right for bringing the wrath of "Blue Lantern" down on the Canadian firearms scene.
Serves 'em right for bringing the wrath of "Blue Lantern" down on the Canadian firearms scene.
You are absolutely right, it's very serious on both sides of the border...
This will help everyone understand the severity of the situation... I have picked Flir as an example as everyone knows who they are,
This will help everyone understand the severity of the situation... I have picked Flir as an example as everyone knows who they are,
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Lahti is exempt from controlled goods due to being made before 1946.
The point everyone is missing is these were never lawfully exported from the U.S to be sold to civilians in the first place. The DDTC would never authorize an export to civilians in Canada. My god, the general U.S population can't even own the rounds let alone a 40MM launcher. Do you really think someone was sleeping when they rubber stamped that license application.
Theses are only approved for export to LE and Military contact, period.
These are regulated the same as howitzers and cannons, please note it says launchers... that means all launchers 37 and 40, rifled or not. If it's bigger than 12.7mm it is ITAR controlled.
The US IRUNGUNS Team
Theses are only approved for export to LE and Military contact, period.
These are regulated the same as howitzers and cannons, please note it says launchers... that means all launchers 37 and 40, rifled or not. If it's bigger than 12.7mm it is ITAR controlled.
The US IRUNGUNS Team
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my question was unrelated to US legislation or the export in question so no idea why you quoted me.
37mm launcher are commonly available in Canada, >50 cal "projectile launchers" are all over too. Does CGP cover these?
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You could be correct, I doubt controlled goods wants to get into the registration of 37mm smoothbore launchers. Those were designed as signalling devices (not projectile launchers) vs a grenade launcher was designed to launch a projectile, but I get what you are saying about being able to launch projectiles or sub cal rounds. I think 37mm smooth bores are exempt from controlled goods under this section (as long as they are still considered signalling devices not projectile launchers). There are such things as 37mm rifled barrel launchers and I heard from an owner (not directly from CGC as I don’t own one and didn’t inquire) that those are supposed to be registered too. So take that for what it’s worth but that would make sense..
6 The following goods are not controlled goods:
(b) a firearm that has a calibre greater than 12.7 mm and is not a restricted firearm, other than a howitzer, mortar, anti-tank weapon, projectile launcher, flame thrower, recoilless rifle and their components;
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Exemption
a firearm that has a calibre greater than 12.7 mm (.50 cal) and is not a restricted firearm,
That should cover the hunting rifles/shotguns you mentioned as being exempt from controlled goods. The controlled goods act isn’t intended for the regulation of normal hunting or sporting arms. Other large bore AT rifles like the 14.5mm PTRS/PTRD, .55 Boys, 20mm Lahti, 20mm Solothurn are exempt from the act even though they are AT guns because they were made in 1945 or earlier. A tank or single shot artillery piece made in 1945 or before is exempt. I know collectors who are registered with controlled goods for post 1945 tracked armour. The guy also has a WW2 armoured car with a live 37mm single shot cannon ( real gun not GL launcher) . Controlled goods inspects the vehicle under their jurisdiction, the cannon that is live doesn’t matter to them due to date of manufacture and a non restricted status.
Here’s an explanation of exemptions
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/pmc-cgp/quellessont-whatare/section6-eng.html
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