M4 vs 1301 for Bush bear defense?

Jdiep said:
... yea that extra weight will make a difference ..
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It absolutely does if you cover any real mileage. But it's more than just weight: Balance and ergonomics are different. If you can handle them side by side, that would be best.

"Light is right" is usually the norm for me and my applications. But I have had some heavier guns that "carry better" than lighter guns. This often has to do with how the gun is shaped at the balance point for one-handed carry, but not always.

Also, you might strongly prefer how one shotgun shoulders over the other. And if you like shooting one of them more than the other, then you're probably going to practice more with it. If it's for serious use, this is probably way more important than any physical features of the guns.
 
Scotty454 said:
I mean, given that the likelihood of you having to actually shoot a bear is essentially zero, I'd rather carry the lighter of the 2 guns. That and the pistol grip on the M4 is likely to just get in the way, the 1301s are a bit more streamlined for slinging/whatever.

Max capacity for tube fed semi-auto shotguns is determined by the longest shell the gun is designed to fire. 5x 3" shells is 6x 2.75s, 5x 3.5" shells is 7x 2.75s. In a 3" gun, you can load 6x 2.75" shells in the tube, one in the chamber, and one ghost loaded for a total of 8. Same deal with a 3.5" gun gives you 9x 2.75" shells.
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Thanks for the answers. And yeah for a bear at least on a 40 yard simulation by that guy in Alaska who had his buddy run the ski-doo pulling sled with charging bear target on it simulation from 40 the max shots he got off were with an AR-15 (.223) which he got 6 shots off into the face of the bear, basically zero recoil. The next closest was with a pump shotgun he got 3 shots off, bolt action only 1 and I think he got 2 off with the lever action. So you're gonna land somewhere between 3 and 6 with a semi-auto shotgun. But one of those challenger slugs is hitting with more Killy factor than all 6 of the .223 shots combined lol.

I guess my point was, for the 940 pro 5-shot tac/turkey the 5+1 is enough....for bear defence as the thread suggests as you'll never likely get all 6 off at once in a real situation anyway lol. So the 940 pro tac or turkey 18.5's 5-shots worth a look, for zombies though...maybe the 7-8 shot ones would be more fun?

I did run the math on my 7 lb 940 pro turkey 18.5" with those challenger slugs and it's in the 33-37 ft/lbs recoil energy range, more than a 10.5 lb 300 Weatherby 180gr (~29 ft/lbs), softened feel somewhat by the gas pulse of the action but she's a rude little beast! If you like obnoxious and big bore type stuff you'd like this thing I think. .735" 504 gr hard slug at ~1500-1535 fps out of it's 18.5, well 19.5" with Carlson extended IC choke, but accurate, with the holosun 32 moa circle reticle on masking tape x's at 40 yards I was printing 1.6" to 2.1" ctc 3-shot groups with those challenger slugs, so it's legit hunt worthy to 100 yards no prob and would take it over any 44 mag type option as a bush rig. It will turn anything into an instant faucet.
 
blakeyboy said:
...I guess my point was, for the 940 pro 5-shot tac/turkey the 5+1 is enough....for bear defence as the thread suggests as you'll never likely get all 6 off at once in a real situation anyway ...
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I agree with you, but some people might want extra capacity for warning shots. There's a topic for another thread.
 
alpining said:
I agree with you, but some people might want extra capacity for warning shots. There's a topic for another thread.
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esstac cards, on my 940 the 5-shots are perfect, one on the side of the action and then one on the butt stock...I took the one spacer out of the butt stock so lop is around 13 3/8" instead of 13 7/8" it came out of box and 5-round card is perfect fit on the 'camo' non adjustable portion of the butt stock. So you can load it before you walk and then there's 10 more on the thing for topping up anytime you like. esstac cards can be had in 4-7 rounds, but 5-shots work perfect

and correction, the 940 pro 5-shots are 4+1 (2 3/4") not 5+1....unless you can ghost load which I haven't tried, 5 is enough, if you can get all 5 off on a 40 yard bear charge you might be named Jerry lol, so 5 in it, then 10 more on the action/stock is 15 rounds of grab and go nasty, the challenger magnum slugs are 2 3/4"

the 4+1 keeps the gun nice and trim and light, have a look at a 940 pro turkey 18.5"...mine is sitting with holosun eps, Carlson extended IC choke, 2 esstac 5-round cards with no ammo, just bare at 7 lb 1 oz and it's just over 39" long, it's a handy light feeling little thumper, not sure what it weighs with 15 rounds of slugs on/in it but it will help in the recoil management for the first few lol, probably help it get under the 30 ft/lb range...so it's nice to have that flexibility by starting light and still being handy carrying 15 rounds, probably like a naked bare m4 which will be a tank with the extras added

as a final note, warning shots I wouldn't bank on, ran into a guy fresh on trail after being run out of a spot by a grizzly that chewed on his tent in the night and he said they did nothing, 7rm into tree beside its head at 30 yards...nothing, he did say the only thing that seemed to scare him and keep him at bay were the digital alarms he had, one on his phone he rotated with a separate alarm he had, those sounds worked, the warning shots did nothing...not sure I'd have played that game and I have a feeling that same bear was the one the very next year in same spot that created a book called 'mauled'....that's a derail, that bear should have been shot right then and there imo, it stayed with him from 11pm to about 3am, he was in a non motorized area with his quad half way in so maybe that's why he didn't wanna shoot it? anyway, I wasn't camped too far from him when this went on and not sure I'd have done as he did for 5 hours in the middle of the night with this thing circling at 30 yards the whole time....it finally left he fell asleep for a bit and saw bear laying in sun on slope above him and he said that's enough, packed up and left, his quad was overheating and limping it out, I caught up to him on foot and my mountain bike the half way...my bike parked where his quad was lol...so I got the first hand account of why he was heading out early, I actually stalked a good dark loopy ram that morning to 50 yards and spent time trying to make him legal...some days you just never forget, a lot went on that day lol
 
That is an incredible story blakeyboy! I've heard other accounts of grizzlies not even reacting to warning shots. Always worth a try but should never be relied upon is my thinking behind them. Even moose dgaf about gunshots sometimes. Just depends on how the animal feels about it.
 
I'd take the 1301 comp over the 1301 tac and the m4. Less to hang up on brush. A stepped rib with a bead is all that's needed for close range and it's faster to a point and shoot setup. No worrys about trying to find sights or dots
 
blakeyboy said:
esstac cards, on my 940 the 5-shots are perfect...

and correction, the 940 pro 5-shots are 4+1 (2 3/4") not 5+1....unless you can ghost load which I haven't tried,...

as a final note, warning shots I wouldn't bank on, ...
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Good setup if you want the extra ammunition as handy as possible, for sure. Most of the time I don't want anything adding to the width or weight of the shotgun, so it's not for me. I usually carry extra shells in an easy to reach pocket, even for daytrips. I'm okay with the slower reloading time.

I get the appeal of "more is better", but 4+1 in the gun is enough for me and my applications. BUT ammunition quality is critical. Those really soft slugs made for deer hunting (by far the most common on the shelf) are probably enough for most black bear, but even so I think it's worth searching out the good stuff. Anybody have a link to that 12ga slug penetration test that someone did here?

For serious use, I will never ghost load. Maybe I would be okay with it if I'd done it literally thousands of times in practice with zero hiccups. Even then, I probably wouldn't. These shotguns are just not designed to run with that in mind, and if it's for serious use I want ALL the cards stacked in my favour.

Absolutely, you never know how any particular animal is going to react to gunshots, warning shots or otherwise. But I like to have the option. That habituated griz had probably learned that gunshots didn't mean anything to worry about, over a lifetime of getting brave around other humans and hearing their warning shots (or bear bangers). The digital alarms were probably new to him, which is why they would have had an effect. There is an argument for sound deterrents and rubber slugs... But habituated bears should be reported at the very least, and signage posted so that anybody doing any kind of recreation in the area knows what they're walking in to.
 
metal vs plastic....I'm on team M4. I'm not a small guy so weight doesn't bother me. I have shot 1301 and M4 no question in my mind which one "I" like better....
 
brybenn said:
It was recently posted in the is the 44rm enough thread
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Thanks, that's the one - For reference, it was CGNer 0faustus0 who did the testing, and it's some of the most useful content I've ever seen posted on CGN. It's not perfect, but I've yet to see a better review.

Slug penetration comparison:
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...0-Unofficial-12ga-Slug-Penetration-Comparison

My TL/DR summary: Most slugs have much less penetration than you think, and most are not suitable for large hard(er) targets like bigger bears.
 
That's it. I didn't want to spell his handle wrong and was short on time when I replied
He has done some good work. I've done a bunch myself and for dedicated slug gun I'd go with brenneke gold 3" magnums. They're for rifles barrels only though. They dig deep and hit hard at 600grs.
I cast my own slugs for smooth bore guns and I can control the hardness so I have some that flatten out and some that I can pull out of the back stop and shoot again. For hunting I like rio star slugs or challenger buckhammer slugs as they're accurate and have see thru hulls so there's no question what load is which if I'm with a group
I've had great groupings with the 20ga truball slugs and will eventually get around to playing with every smoothbore slugs I can get for 20ga
 
I own both the Beretta 1031T and Benelli M4. They are both great shotguns however, I find myself pulling the 1301 out of the safe alot more frequently than the M4. The M4 is a great gun, but it is alot more cumbersome.
 
Not sure how the plastic bits that attach the bolt carrier group* to the recoil spring/mag tube would fair in extreme cold. Not saying don't choose the 1301 but it's something to consider.

*no idea what it should be called

farmer47 said:
take this advice regardless of what gun you decide on.
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In addition to practicing, pick the right ammo. Federal Truball deep penetrator seems like a good option.

Rio Royal Brenekke seems like another good option

Then of course there are the Brenekke black magic.
 
I carried a sawed off 12 ga O/U and earlier in my forestry career sometimes a jungle carbine...yes, I was silly with that one. This was when working in remote grizzly country. I later switched to bear spray after losing two well armed experienced colleagues to a grizzly attack while on a hunting trip. Just sayin'.
 
DaveMachine said:
Not sure how the plastic bits that attach the bolt carrier group* to the recoil spring/mag tube would fair in extreme cold. Not saying don't choose the 1301 but it's something to consider.

*no idea what it should be called


In addition to practicing, pick the right ammo. Federal Truball deep penetrator seems like a good option.

Rio Royal Brenekke seems like another good option

Then of course there are the Brenekke black magic.
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I've always been told, and I have no reason to doubt them, that when loading a shotgun for grizzly bear defence it's wise to mix it up a bit. load in the magazine in reverse order of course, but the first and maybe second chambering should be heavy buck. Mindset being there is a spread and he's further out, perhaps wounding the bear and changing his mind for him. Then slugs, for when the intent to kill the bear is inevitable. He's close, maybe wounded and charging...time to end him.
 
The 1301 comes with a cyl choke. If you use federal premium flight control 00 buck, even at 35 yards it is a very tight pattern. I wouldn’t want to be a bear getting a face full of that at 10 yards.
 
Bearspray, then then M4 with a field stock, then the 1301. Thats the order if I had to use either of my 3.

*but I prefer a 14" pump with birdshead grip for carrying in the woods. Semi is not my choice for long hikes. More complicated, safety during possible slips and falls as it's likely chambered if you're getting every last round into it, then more rounds = more weight when you really only get one shot or maybe 2 anyway.
 
Another side note is a gasser doesn't have to be on your shoulder to fire. Sometimes recoil operated guns jam when not being shouldered. I know of 3 m4 guns that will jam if shot one handed where my 1301 never fails. If youre betting your life on a scattergun I'm choosing one that will fire from any position
 
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