Mannlichers....
- Thread starter Rob
- Start date
Its a Mannlicher-Schoenauer Model 1903. Factory upgraded wood w/ finer checkering.
Made c. 1923. All Model 1903s were chambered in 6.5x54 M-S
To me, it has always been the benchmark for all "Mannlicher-style" rifles.
I put the picture up to visually contrast it with the more modern look of the Serengeti 9.3x62 rifle.
Here is the other side:
Made c. 1923. All Model 1903s were chambered in 6.5x54 M-S
To me, it has always been the benchmark for all "Mannlicher-style" rifles.
I put the picture up to visually contrast it with the more modern look of the Serengeti 9.3x62 rifle.
Here is the other side:
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Mangosteen
Regular
- Location
- Okanagan BC/Alberta/ Peruvian coast.
Like the rabbi said. Those that don’t know say. Those that know don’t say.
https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/a.../stutzens-berg-bolt-feuer-ischler-and-pirsch/
re: STUTZEN RIFLES
This is what I published on the subject in Bulletin#35 of the German Gun Collectors Ass. www.germanguns.com some years ago:
Regarding the article on "Mannlicher" stocks, you stepped into one of the many traps of the complicated German language: Unfortunately there are three very similar verbs (two of them even spelled and spoken the same) with different meanings:
1.) stutzen or stuetzen = to support, to prop up. This is the one you tried to use to explain "Stutzen".
2.) stutzen = to stop short, to hesitate: obviously wrong.
3.) stutzen = to trim, to cut back, to shorten: This is the one to use! Since the 1700s the southern Germans and Austrians used Stutzen for any rifle shorter than a long infantry musket. (the Swiss in their slightly different dialect say Stutzer instead)
For instance the Stutzen M1768 for Austrian Grenzscharfschutzen = frontier sharpshooters (the Austro-Hungarian "frontier" to the Ottoman empire was a broad military zone with a 300 year history of skirmishes, raids and guerilla warfare): You would possibly describe this as an "Jaeger"-type flintlock over-under, combination rifle.(one barrel rifled for accurate shooting, the other smooth for rapid reloading) Yes, it was military issue!
Another example:The military straight pull M95 Mannlicher came in three designations:
Gewehr M95: Long infantry rifle with 30" barrel
Karabiner M95: carbine for cavalry use with 20" barrel and sling attachment on the left side of the stock.
Stutzen M95: short rifle for special (mountain-, artillery-) troops, 20" barrel, same length as carbine, but sling swivels on the bottom and a bayonet mount like the rifle.
So the Austrians were apt to call any rifle a Stutzen, even the 24" barreled, half stocked, 7x64 or 8x60 M1925 Mannlicher-Schoenauer were variously called the "Hochgeschwindigkeitsstutzen" or "Hochrasanzstutzen" in old catalogs. An old Springer, Vienna, catalog even used “Doppelstutzen” for the double rifles they offered
Note also the expressions "Feuerstutzen" for a Schuetzen-style target rifle and "Zimmerstutzen" for an indoor target rifle.
In Germany, except the part south of the Danube, neighboring Austria and Switzerland ,the use of the word Stutzen or Stutzer for a rifle was totally unknown until after 1900! Instead, short rifles were called Karabiner and full stocks were circumscribed as stocked to the muzzle in contemporary catalogs.
When Steyr started selling their Mannlicher-Schoenauer sporting rifles in 1905, the short barreled, full stock, double set trigger versions became the most popular in continental Europe. As the Steyr factory called all their rifles "Stutzen" in their catalogs, only then "Stutzen" became a German household word for a full stocked, short rifle! So, the expression "Stutzen" for a full stocked short rifle is hardly older than your "Mannlicher stock"! (Well, at least over here "Mannlicher" is still a protected trade mark of the Steyr factory, while Stutzen is not!)
Nowadays in most of Germany any full- stocked hunting rifle, even if it has a 24” barrel, is called a “Stutzen”, but short-barreled, half-stocked rifles may be called “Karabiner”, but never “Stutzen”.
Exception: In the southernmost part of Bavaria, bordering Austria, and in Austria any sporting rifle, regardless of stock and barrel length, may be called a Stutzen.
re: STUTZEN RIFLES
This is what I published on the subject in Bulletin#35 of the German Gun Collectors Ass. www.germanguns.com some years ago:
Regarding the article on "Mannlicher" stocks, you stepped into one of the many traps of the complicated German language: Unfortunately there are three very similar verbs (two of them even spelled and spoken the same) with different meanings:
1.) stutzen or stuetzen = to support, to prop up. This is the one you tried to use to explain "Stutzen".
2.) stutzen = to stop short, to hesitate: obviously wrong.
3.) stutzen = to trim, to cut back, to shorten: This is the one to use! Since the 1700s the southern Germans and Austrians used Stutzen for any rifle shorter than a long infantry musket. (the Swiss in their slightly different dialect say Stutzer instead)
For instance the Stutzen M1768 for Austrian Grenzscharfschutzen = frontier sharpshooters (the Austro-Hungarian "frontier" to the Ottoman empire was a broad military zone with a 300 year history of skirmishes, raids and guerilla warfare): You would possibly describe this as an "Jaeger"-type flintlock over-under, combination rifle.(one barrel rifled for accurate shooting, the other smooth for rapid reloading) Yes, it was military issue!
Another example:The military straight pull M95 Mannlicher came in three designations:
Gewehr M95: Long infantry rifle with 30" barrel
Karabiner M95: carbine for cavalry use with 20" barrel and sling attachment on the left side of the stock.
Stutzen M95: short rifle for special (mountain-, artillery-) troops, 20" barrel, same length as carbine, but sling swivels on the bottom and a bayonet mount like the rifle.
So the Austrians were apt to call any rifle a Stutzen, even the 24" barreled, half stocked, 7x64 or 8x60 M1925 Mannlicher-Schoenauer were variously called the "Hochgeschwindigkeitsstutzen" or "Hochrasanzstutzen" in old catalogs. An old Springer, Vienna, catalog even used “Doppelstutzen” for the double rifles they offered
Note also the expressions "Feuerstutzen" for a Schuetzen-style target rifle and "Zimmerstutzen" for an indoor target rifle.
In Germany, except the part south of the Danube, neighboring Austria and Switzerland ,the use of the word Stutzen or Stutzer for a rifle was totally unknown until after 1900! Instead, short rifles were called Karabiner and full stocks were circumscribed as stocked to the muzzle in contemporary catalogs.
When Steyr started selling their Mannlicher-Schoenauer sporting rifles in 1905, the short barreled, full stock, double set trigger versions became the most popular in continental Europe. As the Steyr factory called all their rifles "Stutzen" in their catalogs, only then "Stutzen" became a German household word for a full stocked, short rifle! So, the expression "Stutzen" for a full stocked short rifle is hardly older than your "Mannlicher stock"! (Well, at least over here "Mannlicher" is still a protected trade mark of the Steyr factory, while Stutzen is not!)
Nowadays in most of Germany any full- stocked hunting rifle, even if it has a 24” barrel, is called a “Stutzen”, but short-barreled, half-stocked rifles may be called “Karabiner”, but never “Stutzen”.
Exception: In the southernmost part of Bavaria, bordering Austria, and in Austria any sporting rifle, regardless of stock and barrel length, may be called a Stutzen.
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I'm currently in the process of buying a LH Steyr Mannlicher Model M with full length stock in 270 Win. Looking forward to handling, carrying, shooting and hunting with it! (apparently these rifles were also chambered in 25-06, 30-06 and 7x64...have only seen pics of RH in 270 and 30-06)
I really liked the LH Sako L691 with full length stock I had (30-06), but man it was heavy (thick stock). It did have nice figure in the stock on the one side. (These were also available in 25-06, 6.5x55, 280 and 9.3x62...would love to find the 6.5 or 9.3...although if as heavy, the 9.3 would benefit from the extra weight...but may not be my first choice for sorting out wounded bears in the thick brusk due to its weight...just not as handy)
The Steyr should be handier being as it will be almost 2 lbs lighter.
I really liked the LH Sako L691 with full length stock I had (30-06), but man it was heavy (thick stock). It did have nice figure in the stock on the one side. (These were also available in 25-06, 6.5x55, 280 and 9.3x62...would love to find the 6.5 or 9.3...although if as heavy, the 9.3 would benefit from the extra weight...but may not be my first choice for sorting out wounded bears in the thick brusk due to its weight...just not as handy)
The Steyr should be handier being as it will be almost 2 lbs lighter.
Agreed. I used to have numerous Sakos. I got rid of them because of their excess weight. Especially after the 70's, they seemed to just get heavier and bulkier with every new model.
In contrast, consider this handy little Oberndorf Mauser Sporter in 9x57 c. 1922. On my scale it weighs exactly 6.5 lb.
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Oberndorf Mauser Commercial Sporters before 1930 were rust-blued and the receiver interiors were polished white.
Around 1930, Mauser switched to modern hot acid bluing and the receiver interiors were left blued.
I wonder how they polished the receiver interiors. I have never tried it. Does anyone know the technique?
I am guessing they used fitted blocks (hardwood or metal?) and various grades of suspended abrasives. Or (fitted?) abrasive blocks. It must have taken some time.
Anyway, they did a very neat job of it. Very thorough polishing. The blued bolts are also very smooth, but not loose, white polished insides of the receivers.
See a couple of pre-1930 examples below.
Around 1930, Mauser switched to modern hot acid bluing and the receiver interiors were left blued.
I wonder how they polished the receiver interiors. I have never tried it. Does anyone know the technique?
I am guessing they used fitted blocks (hardwood or metal?) and various grades of suspended abrasives. Or (fitted?) abrasive blocks. It must have taken some time.
Anyway, they did a very neat job of it. Very thorough polishing. The blued bolts are also very smooth, but not loose, white polished insides of the receivers.
See a couple of pre-1930 examples below.
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That may now be the more popular term. I'm just using what Jon Speed uses in his 1997 Mauser book. He calls it "hot acid bluing" or "hot-dip bluing."
(Page 187, "Switching to Hot-Dip Bluing..." Mauser, Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles.)
I still wonder how they did such a perfect job of polishing all the receiver internals on the pre-1930 Mauser sporters. There is a very short Midway, USA youtube video showing how to polish the raceways of a Mauser 98 but it looks like a "quick and dirty" approach, to be used on fairly rough surplus military Mauser 98 receivers. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yITUZSWmMCw) The Mauser factory polishing seems much more extensive, thorough and precise.
After 1930, more and more shortcuts, like no more internal receiver polishing and "hot-dip bluing," were used in Mauser sporter production. Amazingly, Mauser continued to produce sporters throughout the war and even afterwards while under French occupation. And after 1946, Walter Roll, the last head of the Mauser sporting arms dept. continued to work in Oberndorf, making up Mauser sporters using leftover parts from the Mauser inventory right up until 1965. (This is according to Speed in Mauser, Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles pp 296-297.) I have never seen one of these latter day Mauser sporters. But if someone has one, it would be interesting to hear how the fit and finish compares to earlier examples.
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I wish I could afford the Speed books, they are considered the bible for commercial Mauser. For polishing Mauser and other bolt action rifle receivers with similar sized bolts I have use a pair of mandrels, one round and one rounded square. Abrasive paper is attatched around the outside and the mandrel is pushed back and forth in the receiver …
Custom gunsmith Jack Belk has a treatise on the net on receiver polishing, he uses soft stones epoxied to mandrels for inside polishing. He shows results similar to Mauser old polishing. My method smooths up the bolt travel, but just removes the high spots.
P.S. did you win Sauer Mauser ?
Custom gunsmith Jack Belk has a treatise on the net on receiver polishing, he uses soft stones epoxied to mandrels for inside polishing. He shows results similar to Mauser old polishing. My method smooths up the bolt travel, but just removes the high spots.
P.S. did you win Sauer Mauser ?
Speed's (now very over-priced) 1997 Mauser book is the "bible" for commercial Mausers because there is really nothing else. However, it does have a lot of irrelevant material in it, including long sections on the Mauser 66 (should be a separate book) and other recent Mauser factory rifles (none of them having anything to do with the M-98) and lots of outdated information about American custom Mausers. Some of the color photos are not great. It also needs a proper index. There are other problems with the book. However, Speed is supposedly working on a new updated version that will be the one to own.
That said, Jon Speed seems a very nice guy. A couple of decades ago, I had some problems with an Oberndorf Type M, so I emailed him (no idea where I got his email address from and it has long since been lost.) He replied nearly instantly from a hunting camp somewhere in Africa and wrote me a long and detailed email explaining everything. I really appreciated that. After all, he didn't have any obligation to answer a technical Mauser question from a fellow he didn't even know who emailed him out of the blue.
Thanks for the polishing information.
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I asked the guys over at Gunboards about polishing the interior of the receivers on Mauser Commercial Sporters and I got this cogent reply from ktr. (Nothing this detailed appears in Speed's book.).
The recv'r high polishing was actually done before the bluing process. Part of the overall polishing of the metal work of the rifle.
When the Rust Bluing is done, the rusting soln is purposely kept off of the areas meant to be 'in the white' on the finished product.
Of course some over splash of the soln can and likely did occur onto those areas.
But for the most part those areas only got some discoloration from the boiling water part of the process of the Rust Bluing.
If you've done any of it you know what it looks like. A slight gray discoloration to the polished steel with some water spotting and that it easily cleans up.
So after the Bluing is complete, at some point the 'in the white areas' are gone over again to brighten them up to finish polish. This is an easy and quick process since the final grit/degree of polish is already on the surface. You just have to remove that discoloration it got from going thru the Rust Bluing.
Careful use of fine grit paper wrapped on wooden slats that closely fit the raceways and channels works easily to brighten them up. Also the wooden pieces in forms that closely fit the internal areas are charged with very fine grit powder and oil are used.
Most all the European quality arms were finished like that, rifles, handguns and shotguns as well.
Luger, Mauser, Mannlicher, etc
Hot Bluing put an end to the practice for the most part though some commercial mfg'rs continued the contrasting finish for a time.
But removing the hot salt blue finish was labor intensive on internal surfaces in order to get the same look as every thing was blued,,corners, crevices, blind holes, etc.
The total bright polished look was not lying there under the slight discoloration of a boiling water bath of the rust blue process as before waiting to be easily revealed with some polishing.
It was now a very time consuming process.
So in the end, the fine finished look was dropped in favor of a full blued finish inside and out.
The recv'r high polishing was actually done before the bluing process. Part of the overall polishing of the metal work of the rifle.
When the Rust Bluing is done, the rusting soln is purposely kept off of the areas meant to be 'in the white' on the finished product.
Of course some over splash of the soln can and likely did occur onto those areas.
But for the most part those areas only got some discoloration from the boiling water part of the process of the Rust Bluing.
If you've done any of it you know what it looks like. A slight gray discoloration to the polished steel with some water spotting and that it easily cleans up.
So after the Bluing is complete, at some point the 'in the white areas' are gone over again to brighten them up to finish polish. This is an easy and quick process since the final grit/degree of polish is already on the surface. You just have to remove that discoloration it got from going thru the Rust Bluing.
Careful use of fine grit paper wrapped on wooden slats that closely fit the raceways and channels works easily to brighten them up. Also the wooden pieces in forms that closely fit the internal areas are charged with very fine grit powder and oil are used.
Most all the European quality arms were finished like that, rifles, handguns and shotguns as well.
Luger, Mauser, Mannlicher, etc
Hot Bluing put an end to the practice for the most part though some commercial mfg'rs continued the contrasting finish for a time.
But removing the hot salt blue finish was labor intensive on internal surfaces in order to get the same look as every thing was blued,,corners, crevices, blind holes, etc.
The total bright polished look was not lying there under the slight discoloration of a boiling water bath of the rust blue process as before waiting to be easily revealed with some polishing.
It was now a very time consuming process.
So in the end, the fine finished look was dropped in favor of a full blued finish inside and out.
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- Location
- SE corner Sk
A Stutzen built by Dorleac on a J.P. Sauer and Son Oberndorf Mauser action. Site shows all stages of the build.
It has a bit too much color case hardening for me (I don't want a rifle to look like an oil slick) but otherwise it's great.
https://www.dorleac-dorleac.com/pro...utzen-on-1902-original-mauser-action/?lang=en
It has a bit too much color case hardening for me (I don't want a rifle to look like an oil slick) but otherwise it's great.
https://www.dorleac-dorleac.com/pro...utzen-on-1902-original-mauser-action/?lang=en
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The Dorleac Stutzen is based on a J.P Sauer and Son Mauser (Sauer used original Oberndorf Mauser-98 commercial actions purchased directly from Mauser.)
To me, it is interesting to see how much of the original rifle Dorleac kept and how he then modified it.
I like the way he kept the unique Sauer floorplate release. It has the typical German latch but is not hinged. The floorplate just pops off completely.
I have one on a 1909 Sauer Mauser (below, top) and it works very well. I actually like it better than the hinged versions.
To me, it is interesting to see how much of the original rifle Dorleac kept and how he then modified it.
I like the way he kept the unique Sauer floorplate release. It has the typical German latch but is not hinged. The floorplate just pops off completely.
I have one on a 1909 Sauer Mauser (below, top) and it works very well. I actually like it better than the hinged versions.
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I notice Dorleac changed the set trigger adjustment screw to the common slot screw type. This photo shows the original....just has a hole through it...I like it and find it easier to adjust than the slot-head type.
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