Marksmanship/proficiency of average hunter...
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it's quite amusing everyone sitting back and saying that their fellow hunters are garbage shots (that's loosely summing up the bulk of the posts)...basically everyone's talking about each other in here...as i said before...arrogance abounds at CGN.
- Location
- British Canuckistan
what would you say one needs to do to become a good shooter, besides practice? what little things does one need to pay attention to and master?
I'm currently reading Jeff Coopers book on being a rifleman and most of the information is common sense, tho there are some lil tidbits in there that are nice.
I'm currently reading Jeff Coopers book on being a rifleman and most of the information is common sense, tho there are some lil tidbits in there that are nice.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
what would you say one needs to do to become a good shooter, besides practice? what little things does one need to pay attention to and master?
I'm currently reading Jeff Coopers book on being a rifleman and most of the information is common sense, tho there are some lil tidbits in there that are nice.
Cooper's writings present the basics of marksmanship in a way that makes them seem like common sense, but if you do not have the basics down you are working at a great disadvantage. Perhaps Cooper's most important message is that of field marksmanship. Once the rifle is sighted in, get off the bench and learn to shoot quickly from field positions. Practice getting into those positions quickly and develop a way to find your natural point of aim without the loss of time. Shooting in a hunting environment is often time dependent, so your practice should have a time element. Learn to work the action with the rifle at your shoulder. Many animals have escaped because the hunter has taken the rifle off his shoulder to admire the effect of his shot rather than being ready to follow-up instantly. Learn to top off the magazine of your rifle without taking your eyes off your target. When practicing field marksmanship, don't shoot groups, shoot pairs as quickly as you can work the action and get back on target. Concentrate less on group size, although 2-4 MOA is very good, and concentrate more on where the shots land from your intended POI.
Another important lesson that Cooper teaches is that of the practical hunting rifle. The chambering while less important, should be prudent for the game being hunted, but the hunter does himself little good by purchasing a rifle system that is too specialized. The over specialized system often includes a high power scope that makes the entire outfit useless at close range where the majority of big game shots are taken. The rifle needs to be handy in weight and length. A 20" barrel has little disadvantage at long range, but a 26" barrel has little advantage at long range but plenty of disadvantage in heavy cover.
Shooting at a moving targets is a worth while exercise, and will often leave someone who prides himself on tight groups when bullseye shooting shaking his head. I like to shoot at a pail pulled behind a quad or a vehicle as the pail jumps and tumbles towards me. I've posted a video of this once or twice.
Beyond marksmanship skills, one needs to develop the ability to read the wind and mirage, estimate range, track and stalk. None of these abilities are hunting season dependent, and can be practiced almost every day.
Once again Boomer excellent post...
I shoot magnums because I can shoot magnums...
I also shoot non-magnums they each have their place.
If you can't shoot a magnum proficiently then go back to a non-magnum it will get the job done for you just not with as much authority.
I shoot magnums because I can shoot magnums...
I also shoot non-magnums they each have their place.
If you can't shoot a magnum proficiently then go back to a non-magnum it will get the job done for you just not with as much authority.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Refers to an old quote, and I forget by who, perhaps Col. Townsend Whelan.
As opposed to your front legs?
"Stand up on your hind legs and shoot like a man"
Can also be found in the IHMSA rules:
""Standing" means just that. Stand up on your hind legs and shoot like a man (or woman)! None of that sissy laying down supported stuff."
http://www.msa-ihmsa.com/cbook.htm
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- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
The great Harry Pope first made the comment about "shooting off your hind legs like a man"
Of course, him and the Colonel hung out, as did Mr. Harvey Donaldson and
many other great shooters and hunters of their day.
The fact remains that , magnum or not, most hunters simply do not shoot enough to know their rifles and their own capabilities.
I'm a fair shot offhand with irons or optics, but tend to practice A LOT!!
This year I have not been able to , and my scores in competition are proving that out.
As far as hunting goes, if i can grab a rest, shoot prone, or sitting, I'll do it every time.
There is no prizes for killing an animal offhand when a person could have taken a rest, only bragging rights.
However, if one misses offhand when one could have taken a rest on yon log or rock, the question will always be there " why didn't I take the rest instead of trying the shot offhand?"
FWIW, Jack O'Connor considered himself a better hunter than shooter.
Warren page was one of the World's best competitors and hunters, but took a rest whenever he could
Page hated recoil, and this is why he developed the 7mm Mag as an all around cartridge, he figured it was at the top of his ability( although he hunted with 350 magnums and bigger stuff sometimes)
The cartridges mentioned are good , all cartridges, with bigger bullets available than maybe what they need, considering that the cases they are derived from have always been a the top of the pile when it comes to being user friendly.....
BTW, the pig at 300 meters is not hit regularly by 90% of the hunters who shoot at it offhand, unless they are silhouette shooters, IMHO!
Cat
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To become a good shooter, pistol or rifle, learn proper trigger release. To vastly improve your shooting skill a very simple excercise is all that's needed. Get a fellow shooter to take your rifle, work the action and carefully give it back to you.
You aim and release the trigger, but it may, or may not, have a cartridge in the chamber.
After some flinches from the hammer falling on an empty chamber, you will quickly learn how to get the trigger properly released!
You will learn more in a couple of hours of this than you will in months of practice, practice, practice (at yanking the trigger.)
It is not just a case of jumping from the recoil, either. A 22 pistol held at arms length and fired with one hand, is just as hard to control (the trigger) as a 38 Special, or even a 357. I will wager that anyone who has shot competitively with a revolver has spent hours at partly loading the cylinder, preferrably by someone else, so he/she doesn't know if the hammer is going to fall on a primer, or an empty cylinder.
Accomplished target shooters will have any number of little methods they will use to get a proper release of the trigger. Any competitive target shooters reading this will know the one single word, most often silently said, as they release the trigger, is, "Follow through."
You aim and release the trigger, but it may, or may not, have a cartridge in the chamber.
After some flinches from the hammer falling on an empty chamber, you will quickly learn how to get the trigger properly released!
You will learn more in a couple of hours of this than you will in months of practice, practice, practice (at yanking the trigger.)
It is not just a case of jumping from the recoil, either. A 22 pistol held at arms length and fired with one hand, is just as hard to control (the trigger) as a 38 Special, or even a 357. I will wager that anyone who has shot competitively with a revolver has spent hours at partly loading the cylinder, preferrably by someone else, so he/she doesn't know if the hammer is going to fall on a primer, or an empty cylinder.
Accomplished target shooters will have any number of little methods they will use to get a proper release of the trigger. Any competitive target shooters reading this will know the one single word, most often silently said, as they release the trigger, is, "Follow through."
You have a point, but I think it's more of a case of the bad shots are what stick out in our minds. It may sound that way, but I don't think it's truly about arrogance. It's like when your driving down the highway, it's only the really bad drivers you notice and complain about.
Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly, you're talking about the kill zones being the "diameter" of a 45 gallon drum on a moose and the "diameter" of a 5 gallon pail for a deer, correct?
Next time any one of us drops an animal off at the meat cutters have a look at some of the animals already hanging in the cooler with the hides removed....not everyone is as good a shot as they would like to believe. Sure it's dead, but at the expense of a quarter of meat and a second shot. Regardless of your favorite rifle caliber, nothing does more good than lots of practice with it. The off-hand exercises talked about here are very good suggestions.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Nicely put!
I've come to believe that handgun shooting, because most of it's done standing, will help rifle scores off hand. It teaches trigger control, and concentration like no straight rifle shooter can imagine.
Which Jeff Cooper book were you reading(Mr. Friendly)/recommending(Boomer)?
e.g.
- "A Rifleman Went to War"
- "Art of the Rifle: Special Color Edtion"
- "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth"
I've missed every standing shot I've ever taken.
With sandbags I've never missed a groundhog.
I'm joining a 50 yard shooting range -- I'll try sandbags, but at only 50 yards I don't think it'll be any fun/sport unless I put the sandbags aside and stand.
e.g.
- "A Rifleman Went to War"
- "Art of the Rifle: Special Color Edtion"
- "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth"
I've missed every standing shot I've ever taken.
With sandbags I've never missed a groundhog.
I'm joining a 50 yard shooting range -- I'll try sandbags, but at only 50 yards I don't think it'll be any fun/sport unless I put the sandbags aside and stand.
- Location
- British Canuckistan
hey rangebob...I'm reading 'Art of the Rifle', but it is not in color.
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
I do not practice beyond 300 yrds.
I spend a lot of time on 200 yrds with a 22 250
I spend a lot of time on 150 yrds with my 30 30
and i spend a lot of time on 75yrds with my 45//70
I don't love being at the range, so usually set up my own targets.
I hear a lot about hunting scenarios, and shooting off hand, or out of breath, etc etc.
I have often shoot within 150 yrds, off hand.
I don't think people need to practice running shots, 500 yrd shots, out of breath shots, etc etc unless they intend to shoot under those circumstances.
Personally, I never shoot, and never will shoot an animal at 500 yrds. I prefer to practice my stalking/hunting ability to get closer, rather than practice my shooting at 500 yrds.
I don't run and chase animals, so I rarely shoot out of breath. (occasionally practice out of breath at 75 yrds with the 45/70)
I think a lot of people practice the shots they never take too much.
I also think that there are a lot of people trading off the hunting ability of getting close to an animal, for farther reaching guns.
For me, riding your quad, from your truck, to a ridge, where you sit and wait to shoot an elk at 600 yrds, is not hunting. It is shooting, good marksmanship, but not hunting.
I spend a lot of time on 200 yrds with a 22 250
I spend a lot of time on 150 yrds with my 30 30
and i spend a lot of time on 75yrds with my 45//70
I don't love being at the range, so usually set up my own targets.
I hear a lot about hunting scenarios, and shooting off hand, or out of breath, etc etc.
I have often shoot within 150 yrds, off hand.
I don't think people need to practice running shots, 500 yrd shots, out of breath shots, etc etc unless they intend to shoot under those circumstances.
Personally, I never shoot, and never will shoot an animal at 500 yrds. I prefer to practice my stalking/hunting ability to get closer, rather than practice my shooting at 500 yrds.
I don't run and chase animals, so I rarely shoot out of breath. (occasionally practice out of breath at 75 yrds with the 45/70)
I think a lot of people practice the shots they never take too much.
I also think that there are a lot of people trading off the hunting ability of getting close to an animal, for farther reaching guns.
For me, riding your quad, from your truck, to a ridge, where you sit and wait to shoot an elk at 600 yrds, is not hunting. It is shooting, good marksmanship, but not hunting.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Being a Cooper enthusiast, I have copies of most of his titles including his last, "Shotluck". If I was to recommend a single book to help one learn to shoot it would be "Art of the Rifle".
Shooting is no fun without hitting, but here are some hints in no particular order. Begin with dry firing at a point on the wall indoors. The first step is to find your natural point of aim. To do this when the rifle is held on the mark you have chosen, let all your muscles go slack, and see if the sights swing off target. At this stage you should of assumed a boxer's stance towards the target. Your front foot is your pivot foot, and your rear foot is the foot that adjusts your position. If you are right handed, and your sight is to the right of your target, moving your rear foot slightly ahead will move your sight to the left. Conversely, moving your rear foot slightly back will move your sight to the right. In your boxer's stance, your feet should be about shoulder width apart. Moving your feet closer together will raise your sight, moving them farther apart will lower it.
The trigger should be contacted with the pad of the finger tip, and steady pressure should be increased until the trigger breaks. You should breath prior to each shot, and you should break the shot at the natural pause between the breath out and the next breath in. You should not aim for an extended period of time, it is better to lower the rifle prior to fatigue. When the trigger breaks, pay attention to the position of the sight in relationship to the target when the striker falls. This is called "calling the shot" and what the sight covers when the striker falls is where the bullet will go.
I think the best drill for trigger control is most easily done from prone, although it will work with any position. With the rifle cocked, place a coin on top of the barrel near the muzzle. Start with a quarter and as you improve move to a dime. The smaller the coin, the more sensitive the coin is to movement in the rifle. The idea is that you are able to press the trigger and have the striker fall without disturbing the coin.
When you get to the range, begin your off hand live fire at close range, say 10 yards. When you can get a reasonable group at 10 yards move back to 25, then 50, then 100. Concentrate on each shot, and don't be in to big a rush to increase the range. Once you are getting reasonable groups at 100 yards, you can extend the range, but I don't believe that it is very often prudent to shoot at game beyond 100 yards offhand.
In my 25 yrs of deer hunting I've never shot a deer much past 100yds. I don't reallly see a need in Ontario. Too many people seem to think that if they can shoot "minute of Bulls#$@" at 250 yards from a benchrest at the range then they can take a 250yd shot at a running deer. I think I'm an "average" shot, I just don't take a lot of the stupid shots people take.
- Location
- British Canuckistan
it's reasoning like that I can honestly appreciate. I have a friend who is a very responsible hunter. so responsible in fact that he takes a rifle that is enough to kill the animal, but just enough. he doesn't take a shot unless he knows it's a kill.
Mr Friendly and Boomer:
I've ordered a copy of "Art of the Rifle".
Murf: You're right. Amazon has it on the list as "A Rifleman Went to War by H. W. McBride and LTC Jeff Cooper", but on the one-book-detail page it's exactly as you say "A Rifleman Went to War (Hardcover) by H. W. McBride (Author), LTC Jeff Cooper (Foreword)".
I'll try it your way, including the coin.
I've ordered a copy of "Art of the Rifle".
Murf: You're right. Amazon has it on the list as "A Rifleman Went to War by H. W. McBride and LTC Jeff Cooper", but on the one-book-detail page it's exactly as you say "A Rifleman Went to War (Hardcover) by H. W. McBride (Author), LTC Jeff Cooper (Foreword)".
I was taught to breath in, and then exhale half a breath and hold that, and then squeeze the trigger.Boomer said:
I'll try it your way, including the coin.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Mr Friendly and Boomer:
I've ordered a copy of "Art of the Rifle".
Murf: You're right. Amazon has it on the list as "A Rifleman Went to War by H. W. McBride and LTC Jeff Cooper", but on the one-book-detail page it's exactly as you say "A Rifleman Went to War (Hardcover) by H. W. McBride (Author), LTC Jeff Cooper (Foreword)".
I was taught to breath in, and then exhale half a breath and hold that, and then squeeze the trigger.
I'll try it your way, including the coin.
Yup, lot's of people were taught that.
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