Mini 14 and why do some oppose

rally guy said:
So the xcr (Submitted for SOCOM contract) ,rfb (MBR IMO) ,jr carbine (pistol cal PDW) , fn ar (Black rifle), mr1 (black rifle), sub2000 (Pistol cal carbine PDW imo), su 16 (IMO its a survival plinker) , acr (Ground up built for military), ar-10 (are you serious?) etc... so they ar all hunting guns?

I get your point and dont belive a mini-14 is a full on black gun. But your talking not of black rifles but of automatic military rifles and there derivative ;)
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In my opinion most of the guns in the black rifle forum are only included here because the site would be to convoluted with subforums for every subclass of firearm. I don't consider the Sub2000, Vector, JR Carbine, TP9 and etc black rifles, I consider them PDW's or pistol carbines, which I personally consider a different topic of guns.

XCR, ACR, Tavor, are all Black Rifles imo because a) they were built ground up as a military platform and B) they were submitted for the SOCOM program.

MR1, FN AR are black rifles as they are targeted towards Police/para military and meet all the other requirements.

RFB and AR10 I consider MBR they are .30cal rifles that are more inline with the FAL than they are with the AR15 the grand father of Black Rifles.

The AK is not a Black Rifle it is a Red Rifle lol


carsmovies said:
I actually did own one about 30 years ago. And how much did you pay for your Swiss Arms Tactical WEAPON? I certainly trust the word and advice of my gunsmith with over 40 years experience than a wannabe tactical weapons expert. Also just cause I've never owned a Lexus doesn't mean that what the majority of people write saying that it's reliable doesn't make it not so.
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Gun smiths love the Mini 14... keeps them in business :D I kid I kid.


The Mini 14's from production until 2008 were infamous for their MOB accuracy. I tried the MOA Mini 14, and thought it was a joke. Don't get me wrong, Ruger makes an excellent product, but to me the Mini 14 will always be a close range varmint truck gun/ranch rifle.
 
Utah said:
If you bought a gun and sold it within months of buying it, why would you buy another, and then another, and then another, and then another (I'm not sure how many is "many")
Horrendous ergos for you etc.. you got me scoopied here Alex, must say
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I'm an optimist: the Mini-14 is a great utility rifle and it's always getting better in quality so I bought a blue one in 1985, a SS one in the 90, a target one a couple of years back and seriously considered getting a 6.8 SPC one 2 years ago!

I resell them with a couple of month after going bezerk over ergonomics!
The stainless steel Mini-14 was resold within 2 weeks because it overheated so easily.

The Mini-14 is a great buy at around $600 even if it's not a black rifle and the ergonomics are still horrendeous!

Alex
 
c0ntract said:
In my opinion most of the guns in the black rifle forum are only included here because the site would be to convoluted with subforums for every subclass of firearm. I don't consider the Sub2000, Vector, JR Carbine, TP9 and etc black rifles, I consider them PDW's or pistol carbines, which I personally consider a different topic of guns.

XCR, ACR, Tavor, are all Black Rifles imo because a) they were built ground up as a military platform and B) they were submitted for the SOCOM program.

MR1, FN AR are black rifles as they are targeted towards Police/para military and meet all the other requirements.

RFB and AR10 I consider MBR they are .30cal rifles that are more inline with the FAL than they are with the AR15 the grand father of Black Rifles.

The AK is not a Black Rifle it is a Red Rifle lol




Gun smiths love the Mini 14... keeps them in business :D I kid I kid.


The Mini 14's from production until 2008 were infamous for their MOB accuracy. I tried the MOA Mini 14, and thought it was a joke. Don't get me wrong, Ruger makes an excellent product, but to me the Mini 14 will always be a close range varmint truck gun/ranch rifle.
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What do you consider close range and what kind of grouping did you get with the 581/582 series mini?
 
c0ntract said:
In my opinion most of the guns in the black rifle forum are only included here because the site would be to convoluted with subforums for every subclass of firearm. I don't consider the Sub2000, Vector, JR Carbine, TP9 and etc black rifles, I consider them PDW's or pistol carbines, which I personally consider a different topic of guns.

XCR, ACR, Tavor, are all Black Rifles imo because a) they were built ground up as a military platform and B) they were submitted for the SOCOM program.

MR1, FN AR are black rifles as they are targeted towards Police/para military and meet all the other requirements.

RFB and AR10 I consider MBR they are .30cal rifles that are more inline with the FAL than they are with the AR15 the grand father of Black Rifles.

The AK is not a Black Rifle it is a Red Rifle lol




Gun smiths love the Mini 14... keeps them in business :D I kid I kid.


The Mini 14's from production until 2008 were infamous for their MOB accuracy. I tried the MOA Mini 14, and thought it was a joke. Don't get me wrong, Ruger makes an excellent product, but to me the Mini 14 will always be a close range varmint truck gun/ranch rifle.
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I agree 100% but as you said we dont have sub forum so we group them togeter;)... and yes i was kidding about the ar 10......

It nice to be able to discus with out insult flying
 
rally guy said:
I agree 100% but as you said we dont have sub forum so we group them togeter;)... and yes i was kidding about the ar 10......

It nice to be able to discus with out insult flying
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Yeah I like discussion and reading about other peoples perspectives and I am not going to tell people that they are wrong or stupid over something that is relatively undefined and subjective. I just state the reasons why I don't consider it a black rifle and if you agree cool, if you don't thats fine to the world will keep spinning.


carsmovies said:
What do you consider close range and what kind of grouping did you get with the 581/582 series mini?
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I tired the latest Target mini with the comp on the end and it got 2-4" groups at 100 meters shooting from a bench with a redfield scope, I get about the same from my norc shooting from a bench... but it has a 10" barrel lol.

I tried an older tricked out Mini that is owned by another CGN member here and it jammed every shot and tore up the brass quite good. He did fix the problem and the next time out it worked ok, but my AR15 and VZ shoot much better, feel better and lets face it if the zombies come and I glanced in my gun safe and had to choose among my guns, the Mini would be the last thing I grabbed, even after the enfield and trap guns. (Ok I would probably pick it over the Martini single shot and BT99)

I consider it a (up to) 100 yard coyote rifle. It is not accurate enough for anything smaller than yote at distances beyond that unless your shooting from a bench.

I consider it a peg below the SU16 as a portable plinker. That being said I give the SU16 brownie points for being really portable in its folded form, plus the AR mags and built in bipod = awesome.

Again just my opinion.
 
c0ntract said:
Yeah I like discussion and reading about other peoples perspectives and I am not going to tell people that they are wrong or stupid over something that is relatively undefined and subjective. I just state the reasons why I don't consider it a black rifle and if you agree cool, if you don't thats fine to the world will keep spinning.




I tired the latest Target mini with the comp on the end and it got 2-4" groups at 100 meters shooting from a bench with a redfield scope, I get about the same from my norc shooting from a bench... but it has a 10" barrel lol.

I tried an older tricked out Mini that is owned by another CGN member here and it jammed every shot and tore up the brass quite good. He did fix the problem and the next time out it worked ok, but my AR15 and VZ shoot much better, feel better and lets face it if the zombies come and I glanced in my gun safe and had to choose among my guns, the Mini would be the last thing I grabbed, even after the enfield and trap guns. (Ok I would probably pick it over the Martini single shot and BT99)

I consider it a (up to) 100 yard coyote rifle. It is not accurate enough for anything smaller than yote at distances beyond that unless your shooting from a bench.

I consider it a peg below the SU16 as a portable plinker. That being said I give the SU16 brownie points for being really portable in its folded form, plus the AR mags and built in bipod = awesome.

Again just my opinion.
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Have you shot an SU-16? ..they're alright, the AR mags is a + to be sure, but the bipod is flimsy (but it's there when you need it and that ain't a bad thing) ..the rifle doesn't feel all that solid, but still pretty cool for the buck.

I'd take the mini-14 out of the two.. just about every other rifle people have suggested here as alternative, are hardly comparable for umpteen reasons.. the SU-16 is the most comparable, but still looks black where a mini does not.. I know, I know there's stocks that make it look black, but I prefer it lookin ranchi :)
 
I love the feel of the mini 14!! wood and blued! Would love to get my hands on a factory folder but don't want to shove out 500 bucks for a used one lol..

AH su-16 a notch above the mini 14! My heart skipped a beat:p any who the lar15s are a super plus for sure! Other than that my view of the su-16 is similar to the sub2000 (PLASTIC junk!)
 
Utah said:
Have you shot an SU-16? ..they're alright, the AR mags is a + to be sure, but the bipod is flimsy (but it's there when you need it and that ain't a bad thing) ..the rifle doesn't feel all that solid, but still pretty cool for the buck.

I'd take the mini-14 out of the two.. just about every other rifle people have suggested here as alternative, are hardly comparable for umpteen reasons.. the SU-16 is the most comparable, but still looks black where a mini does not.. I know, I know there's stocks that make it look black, but I prefer it lookin ranchi :)
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I agree.

Yup I have handled one. I classed it as a portable plinker. The 10 round mags are a big plus for the SU16, the additional 2 it holds in the butt stock are neat features to. I wasn't saying the bi pod was great, but it is a bit more of a tactical feature than what the mini comes with.

I say think they are comparable, I just give the SU extra credit because it has some extra benefits in the AR mag compatibility. I would peg the SU16 as a survivalist rifle or a really portable predator control.

I agree with the SU16 being kinda junky and plastic... yet thats how I see the mini hahaha its just junky and wood :D I kid I kid please don't throw your walnut stocks at me mini owners :D

Anyway, all in all I don't personally think the mini is a black rifle. I see it as ranch rifle/predator control but thats just me and I am no expert.
 
Jayne said:
Hi all,

Whether it is a black rifle or not is irrelevant to me. It is a semi-automatic rifle that will shoot 5.56mm or .223. It has a detachable magazine. It is under $1000.

Most importantly, it is non-restricted in Canada.

If the AR-15A2 was changed to a non-restricted rifle, I would change. Until then, I will stick with my Mini-14. Better the adequate gun you can carry, than the great one home locked in your gun locker.

The title "black rifle"only matters if you care, and I don't.

- Jayne
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I'm in the same boat.

If I was in KevinB's shoes things would be different and there's no way I would want a Mini 14, but then again I wouldn't want most of the AR's on the market either (which are definately black guns, just cheap ones).
 
KevinB said:
The Mini-14 went in and out of fashion, for me it was buying a non-res gun in Canada that could shoot 5.56mm. The 94 AWB down here was its main claim to fame for sales down here, as AR's had 'evil' features and needed to be neutered to a point.

Many folks buy them and are happy. The main reason for that is that they do not shoot that much, and they don't have a accuracy requirement.

For me the gun went south when I took it to the range and tried to group it. I know a number of folks who are in the same boat.

The grand scheme of life is that the vast majority of gun buyers are poorly educated, and do not know enough to make an educated firearms purchase.

V/R
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kevin, come on, they don't group, they pattern.

I'm going to add some here too:
I'm a wobbler on being a fan of the mini, but it is not a black rifle.
It's lumped as "black rifle" because it makes the antis poo poo.. like bon jovi getting played after metallica. People get scared from metallica and change the radio station, bon jovi follows, and half the bon jovi song gets cut off becuase they dislike listening to "one". Therefore they forever lump bon jovi with metallica. Not the same stuff.

It's a ranch rifle, for the average rancher/farmer who needs to poke a coyote, put down a cow, plink with his grandson etc. not large round count activities, which is what Kevinb stated.

just because they have black rifle chambering doesn't make them a black rifle.
 
OP, to answer your question, the Mini-14 is not considered a black rifle because the majority of gun owners don’t consider it to be one. Really, it is just that simple, no special reasoning based on special facts, just the opinion of the majority.

I think you knew that already though, considering this thread and your responses suggest that you needed to discuss why you believe the Mini-14 is a black rifle.
 
terez said:
The reality in this country now and looking forward......556 anything is prolly not a smart platform to have/feed as the platforms and ammo will undoubtedly become difficult to source soon and will always be a heat score.
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Why will 5.56 become difficult to source soon? Explain...
 
It can be a black rifle, its a pretty little gun that wears many dresses.

Bermuda_Regiment.JPG
 
UCSPanther said:
The mini 14 is pretty much an updated version of the M1 carbine: Wood furniture, garand-based bolt, but chambered in a newer round and reasonably accurate for its purpose.

The only people who seem to bash on it in my experience are the rifle elitists who think that anything under $2000 is junk and mall ninjas who don't like it because it doesn't come standard with quad rails for all their tactical junk.



So what you are saying, is that I am uneducated because (a) I like wood, and (b) I cannot afford a $2000+ rifle at this time.

This folks, is a textbook example of a rifle elitist.
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There's nothing "elite" about running good gear. If you don't see quality gear as a priority then so be it, but others do. Running good gear regardless of price is a personal choice and one that doesn't need to be justified.

As for being uneducated. Yes, you are. Wood stocks suck large equine reproductive parts. Wood warps, dries, splits, is heavy and good for camp fires. Short of the "I like old fashioned wood stocked rifles" crowd, there's no practical and/or logical reason to run a wood stock on any firearm, ever. Its called evolution, and wood is out.



c0ntract said:
M14 is not a black rifle, it is a Main Battle Rifle (MBR), VZ58 is a "red rifle" but under traditional nomenclature most consider it to be an assault rifle vs a sporting or ranch rifle that most consider the mini 14

I am not going to argue about the design, almost all hunting rifles (bolt guns included) can be traced back to military rifles designs or origins. In the mini's case it was the M1.

To me, in order for it to be a black rifle to me it has to meet the following criteria.

1) originally intended for military use, with a select fire variant being produced.
2) chambered in NATO caliber or other "military surplus" cartridge.
2.1) must be made in significant quantities to actually outfit a military or a specific role.
3) must accept high capacity mags
4) must be able to field strip easily without tools
5) must be able to fire thousands of rounds reliably between cleanings.
6) bonus if it is issued to at least one military unit foreign or domestic.
7) bonus if it is the firearm of choice for third world dictators
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Wrong. Assault rifles must be select fire and safe and fire does not qualify, therefore an AR, VZ, XCR, Swiss Arms, etc are not "assault rifles". A "red rifle" is simply a "black/green rifle" from the other side of the political spectrum, an "east bloc" firearm. Both are in the same category, "red rifle" and "black and green" rifle are just indicators of origin not intended role.

The criteria for a "black rifle" are simple. Must be marketed/designed for military service, submitted as a contender and/or selected. The design clearly needs to be modern, i.e. detachable magazine, polymer furniture, pic rail mounting system etc etc. The Mini14 was "marketed" by Ruger as a MIL/LE firearm, it was not submitted nor selected by a military so it is not and never will be a "black rifle".

The answer to the question is below. Buy a VZ. It is a service rifle, it works, its cheap, and its more than accurate enough for the vast vast majority of users. The downside is similar to that of the mini 14, its difficult to accessorize especially with optics. Still doable in both cases but I would say equally as awkward and inefficient.

luke s said:
Forget the mini, buy a vz58 instead
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carsmovies said:
Depends why you're buying a mini. If its for varmint hunting then I'd take a mini over a vz58 any day.
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Explain why the VZ isn't suitable for varmint work?

rally guy said:
So the xcr ,rfb ,jr carbine, fn ar, mr1, sub2000, su 16, acr, ar-10 etc... so they ar all hunting guns?
I get your point and dont belive a mini-14 is a full on black gun. But your talking not of black rifles but of automatic military rifles and there derivative ;)
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The guns you mention aren't "hunting" guns, they're wannabe "black/green" guns with the exception of the XCR(sort of), ACR, and AR10. The XCR was intended as a contender for a new service rifle as was the ACR in its proper format, the Masada. The AR10 was the original design that became the AR15/M16 rifle so it counts and it is also in service. The others are just firearms with some modern attributes. The RFB is ok at best, the MR1 is over priced for what you get and is nothing more than a semi auto hunting style rifle with a pistol grip synthetic stock. The JR carbine is a cheap alternative to a sub-cal AR(which suck). The SU-16 and Sub2000 are recreational guns with no chance of surviving serious use and abuse.

TDC
 
The elitism is in saying that a rifle is garbage because it costs less than $X. Garbage is obviously garbage, but it is not garbage because it is less expensive. I am not accusing anybody of elitism per se, but they do exist.

Wood is also a great choice for rifle stocks because they can be repaired easily with common tools and craftsmanship, and can easily be custom fitted to the shooter as they are in very high end shotguns. In larger caliber rifles, the weight is an advantage for recoil. Some synthetic stock materials are excellent: light and durable, but others are little more than tupperware. Depending on the material and finish, synthetic stocks may be more prone to cracking in cold weather, particularly over time. Synthetics are prone to thermal expansion. For example, fiberglass reinforced polycarbonate has a linear expansion coefficient of about 12 (won't get into the units, but bigger is more expansion as it gets hotter). Woods go in to 2-3 range. Guess which material gets made into the stocks for the Anschutz biathlon rifles which win all those Olympic competitions.

If you like synthetic stocks, great. Buy hundreds (just not the ones I am shopping for). To say that wood stocks are for the uneducated is foolish. To say they don't belong on any firearm period is the epitome of ignorance.


TDC said:
There's nothing "elite" about running good gear. If you don't see quality gear as a priority then so be it, but others do. Running good gear regardless of price is a personal choice and one that doesn't need to be justified.

As for being uneducated. Yes, you are. Wood stocks suck large equine reproductive parts. Wood warps, dries, splits, is heavy and good for camp fires. Short of the "I like old fashioned wood stocked rifles" crowd, there's no practical and/or logical reason to run a wood stock on any firearm, ever. Its called evolution, and wood is out.
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