Model 70 supergrade 300win mag rechamber to 300h&h??

Rod said:
FYI . . the 300 H&H case will hold a tad more powder and can exceed the 300 WM and almost touch the 300 Weatherby with 180 gr. bullets. But once you start using 200 gr + bullets the 300 WBY justifies itself and surpasses both the H&H and the WM.

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struff55 said:
FYI 180gr 300wm 4831 -73gr RL22-75.5 -4350 70gr RL 19 73 / 300h&h 4931 -66gr RL22 -71gr 4350 -65gr RL 19- 69gr
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Rod, you have your capacities all screwed up somehow. I have 300 Win Mag and 300 H&H mag cases, and if you fill the 300 Win case to the bottom of the neck with W760, and then try to transfer it into a 300 H&H case, it will overfill the latter. struff55 has given a valid comparison. Regards, Dave.
 
Dave:

The 300 WM case has a short neck and using 180gr- 200gr bullets the bullet seats deeper using up case volume. . The 300 H&H has that long neck and that's where the advantage lies to hold slightly more powder. . Just a tad more. . The advantage becomes even better because the H&H requires less powder to replicate the velocity of the 300 WM.

For example:

Nosler Book has case capacity %

- 300 H&H . . 180 gr . . 69gr IMR 4831 . . 89.5% case capacity . . 68gr IMR 4831 . . 3000 fps
- 300 WM .. . 180 gr . . 69gr IMR 4831 . . 95.0% case capacity . . 69gr IMR 4831 . . 2980 fps

Another curve ball with reloading for the 300 H&H is it fell out of favor for a spell being the 300 WM was touted by Winchester as being a superior cartridge than the older H&H. . This I don't doubt was to help sell the post 64 Model 70's and as such didn't enjoy the upgrades on loading data as the 300 WM did . . The 300 H&H is coming back into it's own as folks realize what a nice cartridge it really is. . It does require a rifle with a longer action so it's doubtful we'll see the new Model 70's offering the 300 H&H chambering. . But never say never.
 
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Well, the long neck on the 300 H&H is a nice feature, but does not quite make up for the larger body diameter of the 300 Win Mag.

I have both in Remington 700 rifles, and I am here to tell you that no matter how you slice the cake, the Win Mag outruns the H&H by close to 100 fps with the 180,
and about 75 fps, even with the 200.

Not saying the 300 H&H isn't a great chambering....it is. But, a 300 Win Mag it isn't, nor will it ever be.
[FWIW, I actually favor the 308 Norma Mag, which IS the ballistic equivalent of the 300 Win Mag.]

Regards, Dave.
 
Dave:

We can agree to disagree on this till the cows come home; but the 300 WM does not out run the H&H . . . The 300 WM was designed to be used in standard length actions. The case body is quite long but the neck is the shortest of the 30 magnums. . Long bullets must be seated deep in the case for cartridges to fit standard length actions. . This reduces powder capacity.. .

Speer Reload Manual Number 11: before the lawyers had them all lower the data. .

Page 235 . . 300 H&H . . max . . 200 gr bullet . . 66 gr 4350 . . @2915 fps
Page 247 . . 300 WM .. . max . . 200 gr bullet . . 69 gr 4350 . . @2833 fps

Page 235 . . 300 H&H . . max . . 180 gr bullet . . 68gr 4350 . . @ 3086 fps.
Page 246 . . 300 WM . . max . . 180 gr bullet . . 72gr 4350 . . @ 3049 fps.

Page 234 . . 300 H&H . . max . . 150 gr bullet . . 79 gr MRP .. @ 3351 fps
Page 245 . . 300 WM .. . max . . 150 gr bullet . . 80 gr MRP .. @ 3197 fps

Craig Boddington came out with his own worked up load around 10 years ago for custom Remington 700 he had chambered by Remington for the 300 H&H. . His studies showed where the 300 H&H was capable of quite bit more than the old data supported.

Here's the Craig Boddington load

150 gr Sierra . . 74 gr 4350 . . @ 3400 fps.

Don't get me wrong, the 300 WM is a good choice, and it would be my choice for 30 cal magnum with the new Model 70 Winchester. . The 300 H&H and the 300 WM are pretty much splitting hairs with performance, but contrary to what has been told to us over the years, I believe the H&H gives just a tad more for what's put into it compared to the WM. . Winchester, as well as most gun makers, try to give us all a reason for buying more guns. . Winchester did it with the 300 WM, 338 WM and we've seen with the short magnums in 30 cal as well . . Having a reason to buy more guns is not a bad thing just not hard to see through the marketing stradegy.
 
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Yes, I have that old Speer manual, but I believe they were working with a shorter magazined M70 rifle for the 300 Win, which requires deep seating of the bullets, as you point out.

However in a Remington 700, with plenty of magazine length, where one can seat the bullets out, here are some figures for the 300 Win Mag with a 24" barrel.

They are listed in Bob Hagel's "Game loads and practical Ballistics for the American Hunter"

200 Grain 3038 fps.
180 grain 3195 fps
165 grain 3340 fps
150 grain 3478 fps

These loads were all achieved with Norma MRP. I have come very close to these figures in the 300 Win Mag and the 308 Norma Mag using the same powder in 700 actions.

It sounds like I'm dissing the 300 H&H magnum here....I'm not!! I love this old Classic. But it lacks the capacity to equal the 300 Win mag in equal length actions. [long]

Regards, Dave.
 
Bob Hagel had some pretty hot loads alright. . I've read where you don't know your rifle's potential until you use Hagel's books. . He could sure push the limits. . Reduce by 10% and work up. .

His headaches he had near then end of his life I've often wondered if it was from handling powder with bare hands. .
 
Rod said:
Bob Hagel had some pretty hot loads alright. . I've read where you don't know your rifle's potential until you use Hagel's books. . He could sure push the limits. . Reduce by 10% and work up. .

His headaches he had near then end of his life I've often wondered if it was from handling powder with bare hands. .
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Some of Hagel's loads were plenty warm, tis true. But he made some chamberings exploit their potential, for certain.

I think the OP should rebarrel his Supergrade to 300 H&H and enjoy that fine old classic chambering. :)

Regards, Dave.
 
I will put my FR on. But I don't like the pre64s at all. I think there ugly. I have owned a few 300 win mags before and disliked them all. I could care less about the shorter better proformance. They have all kicked like a mule. I have always liked classic chamberings. Like the king 375h&h I would never own a 375 ruger it's just a new cart rage that does nothing the old one doesn't do and well it's ugly In comparison. IMO
 
leeelmer said:
I will put my FR on. But I don't like the pre64s at all. I think there ugly. I have owned a few 300 win mags before and disliked them all. I could care less about the shorter better proformance. They have all kicked like a mule. I have always liked classic chamberings. Like the king 375h&h I would never own a 375 ruger it's just a new cart rage that does nothing the old one doesn't do and well it's ugly In comparison. IMO
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I'm confused...on one hand you sound like a good Fudd, but then you denigrate the holy grail of Fuddguns...the Pre64 M70.
 
bjake said:
Since your off on other subjects could I ask if you could re chamber a model 54 30-06 to 300 H H without to much trouble
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I sure wouldn't be doing it. . I had an early Model 54 and they seem to be a weaker outfit than the Model 70. . The bolt assy has the bottom part relieved flat and lack of a separate bolt release, the lock system if it hasn't had the upgrades and the early ones didn't have a gas vent hole . . Most of the early ones were upgraded at a later date and some had the vent hole drilled in the left side. . Back in 1925 the 30-06 wasn't as powerful as it today so I'd be leaving it as is rather than increase the stress even more to handle the 300 H&H modern loadings. . Besides you'd have to enlarge the magazine and relieve the stock to fit a long action and mill out clearance on the top of the receiver and mill the face of the bolt for a belted magnum. . Why bother?
 
bearkilr said:
I'd rather not be around during that process.
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Bearkilr, I did a whole thread on this back a year and a half ago. I have fireformed several hundred 300 WM to 375 Ruger now. They headspace perfectly and the body expands to the .532 dia just fine. My son and I went to the range and fired the same W-W case 7 times with very stiff 375 loads and then came back to the shop and sectioned the case. There was no fracturing evidence at all at the beltline and the brass had flowed out to virtually eliminate the belt. We fired loads in that case that his Horn brass would not sustain and never even got a loose primer pocket or stiff bolt lift. I have since bought a Ruger African in 375 Ruger and have fireformed 100 cases for it without incident, using new W-W 300 WM cases. And there is no need to remove the belt as the Ruger case measures the same as a belted case at the base. Just grab a box of factory 300 WM and run them through the Ruger and Voila you have 375 Ruger from whatever manufacturer of brass is your favorite. No idea why you would say that you'd "rather not be around during that process", it is pretty straight forward fireforming with no potential nasty side effects that I could think of, my only concern was that I may get a fracture line at the case body/belt junction but this too proved to be a non-issue. And if it is a non-issue with W-W brass it won't be with any other brass either as I find W-W to be about the hardest brass out there.



 
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A few years ago Jason Spencer (Gunco) converted a 2000 era CRF model 70 Super-Grade .338WM "Boss" by installing a Douglas .300 H+H pre-chambered 26" barrel on it, popped off the mag spacer, changed ejector etc and sent it back to me for $700-800 I recall. Turned out very nicely though I sold it for a 1954 vintage one eventually. I keep hoping FN/Winchester will announce a special edition "Super-Grade/Featherweight" someday. Below is the rifle I had converted from a .338WM.
 
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