most Reliable and durable handgun ever

Rich LPS said:
Sorry,

Don't have a link to the FN Testing.
That said, the original RFP for the US Army was that the gun needed to be able to fire 60K without any armoring or parts changes...including recoil springs.
The FN 509 was developed to achieve this standard.....then the RFP was changed during evaluation of the candidate weapons. (By the way, HK USP reaches this standard
easily!)

Down select was made to Sig P320 and Glock, FN claimed this was an unfair process (and are right). Glock submitted with a manual safety (often a requirement of Big Army Forces). Glock had funny grip angle and was beat on price by Sig P320. That said the RFP was for a "Modular Handgun", Sig P320 was realistically the only true "Modular" handgun submitted. A few teething problems, but now the P320 is performing spectacular in US Forces use. All branches have now adopted it. As the legacy Glocks in SOF age and wear out they are being replaced by Sig P320's (mostly M18 / variants or XSeries variants).

HK often advertises guns like the P30 and HK45 performing 90K torcher testing (they put the empty casings in a big glass container and put the gun on top / kind of cool) without any lube or recoil spring change. Very hard to beat that performance.
Not sure if the SFP-9 is able to reach those levels with out parts changes.


Rich
Click to expand...

Yeah, the 320 is doing so well they're being dumped by LE all across the US and are being sued for guns that fire uncommanded after 2 separate "voluntary upgrades".

The FN testing is great, but they were one of the first ones to fail and be removed from US Army trials. The FBI has the most rigorous and comprehensive testing and the winner was Glock, even though their own RFP was practically a copy of 320 specs.
 
The FN Testing was very through so they tested many different models of guns to see what was performing the best and why. It did not have parameters to only test what was "thought to" being submitted for the US Army RFP, they were in fact developing their own handgun for the RFP. During development of their own submission it was prudent to see how everything out there performed, whether it was anticipated to be submitted or not.
FN USA is a huge company supplying the vast majority of the combat small arms and crew served weapons to US Forces. They are the big player in the game and were just missing supplying the handgun component. They pulled out "all stops" to try and win the handgun contract. As was mentioned before, some criteria of the RFP was changed part way through the testing. In some ways the FN product was the only submission to meet the original criteria, example no armorer work / parts replacement needed on the gun for 30K. The other submissions couldn't meet that criteria. In the end they were not successful.

*Please note Sassybee doesn't like the P320.

Back on topic, as I mentioned before, what gun enthusiasts think is good or like or test or promote isn't the same as large company endurance testing, with budgets in the 10's of thousands of dollars often with scientific methods and expertise. Shooting guns for sport with buddies doesn't show the same level of data as carrying one operationally daily in much larger sample numbers. Testing trials and results from US Federal LE are confidential and only available to other LE through NDA's. Keep that in mind when someone says this Federal Agency is the best or most stringent, if they haven't signed an NDA they don't really know and are just speculating or reporting what they heard / read on the internet.

Back to the FN Testing, the HK USP proved to outperform every gun they attempted to destroy through torture and endurance testing....shocking the evaluation staff.

Rich
 
Rich LPS said:
The FN Testing was very through so they tested many different models of guns to see what was performing the best and why. It did not have parameters to only test what was "thought to" being submitted for the US Army RFP, they were in fact developing their own handgun for the RFP. During development of their own submission it was prudent to see how everything out there performed, whether it was anticipated to be submitted or not.
FN USA is a huge company supplying the vast majority of the combat small arms and crew served weapons to US Forces. They are the big player in the game and were just missing supplying the handgun component. They pulled out "all stops" to try and win the handgun contract. As was mentioned before, some criteria of the RFP was changed part way through the testing. In some ways the FN product was the only submission to meet the original criteria, example no armorer work / parts replacement needed on the gun for 30K. The other submissions couldn't meet that criteria. In the end they were not successful.

*Please note Sassybee doesn't like the P320.

Back on topic, as I mentioned before, what gun enthusiasts think is good or like or test or promote isn't the same as large company endurance testing, with budgets in the 10's of thousands of dollars often with scientific methods and expertise. Shooting guns for sport with buddies doesn't show the same level of data as carrying one operationally daily in much larger sample numbers. Testing trials and results from US Federal LE are confidential and only available to other LE through NDA's. Keep that in mind when someone says this Federal Agency is the best or most stringent, if they haven't signed an NDA they don't really know and are just speculating or reporting what they heard / read on the internet.

Back to the FN Testing, the HK USP proved to outperform every gun they attempted to destroy through torture and endurance testing....shocking the evaluation staff.

Rich
Click to expand...

Making me want what I already wanted even more haha. Usp 40!! There’s a lot of info on how amazing g they are.
Also interesting info, thanks for sharing. I bought a 509 because I liked the look and the price was amazing. I love FN as they make weapons for war.
 
bross said:
Except that teeny little spring for the bolt stop - which disables the gun...
Click to expand...

True. But very many Blackhawk parts are fully interchangeable. One could order a Wolff Spring kit.
And a handy fella can fabricate one all by himself.
Coil springs are very commonly found everywhere.
Chinese AKs have been found with ball point pen springs replaced a trigger spring.
And I bet you one can find a Dan Wesson revolver coil spring one could modify to fit.
 
Wendell said:
My 5906 went down with extraction issues. (I know what you're thinking, but it was solely factory-loaded new brass case ammunition - WWB, mostly.)

At the time, there were only two S&W warranty stations in all of Canada, and getting replacement parts was an issue too. S&W suggested that because my ten-year-old 5906 was, and I quote, "obsolete", I should just switch to an M&P9. (As it happened, I already had an M&P9, but she didn't know that.) I found it unreasonable of S&W to fail to support the 5906 so quickly after it's manufacture and sale, and I told her so. Not long after that, a new (blued steel) extractor and several extractor springs appeared in the mail from S&W. I then mailed the pistol, and the new parts, all the way across the country so that the warranty station could install them.

All was well for about 2000 rounds (just factory-loaded new brass case ammunition), when the extraction issues started again. I took it out of service, switched to the M&P9, and eventually had a local gunsmith change the extractor spring (for one of the spares that S&W had sent me). By that time, I'd already switched to the M&P9, and I shot that M&P9 for part of one season until the striker broke, and there were no strikers to be had anywhere (no strikers from S&W, no strikers from the warranty stations, no strikers from Brownells) and I switched to my Glock G19 (which has been proven completly reliable).

Not long after that, an RCMP member acquaintance told me that all members' pistols were returned to Depot for service EVERY YEAR. While at Depot, he said, among other thing, the pistols' extractor springs were replaced, EVERY YEAR.

I laugh every time I see someone talking about how great the 3rd gen S&W pistols were. Here's a hint: if they were that great, they'd still be in production, and the RCMP in the sky wouldn't be carrying the G19.
Click to expand...

RCMP pistols are to go back for maintenance every FIVE years. I have been carrying mine ever since they were introduced and it has proven to be a very rugged and very reliable pistol. Contrary to some people's reports - they are also very accurate in spite of the heavy trigger. They are one heck of a tough gun for sure - but there is newer tech out there these days.
 
DT741 said:
They are still in use and functional. There is a big amount of them, brand new in the box, collecting dust in some war reserve warehouse. Their not bad pistol, if you shoot at paper on a flat range but I’d take an extra C8 magazine instead of lugging it around. Good paperweight on a windy day though and perfect to go to and back the DFAC or the Boardwalk which is what they were mainly used for.

A Tech in Mali broke his and he had to hump around the camp with his C7 waiting for a replacement. Boy was he disappointed when a brand new BHP was issued to him, I guess he was expecting a 226... poor guy.
Click to expand...

Hahaha ####ing awesome! :D
 
Rich LPS said:
The FN Testing was very through so they tested many different models of guns to see what was performing the best and why. It did not have parameters to only test what was "thought to" being submitted for the US Army RFP, they were in fact developing their own handgun for the RFP. During development of their own submission it was prudent to see how everything out there performed, whether it was anticipated to be submitted or not.
FN USA is a huge company supplying the vast majority of the combat small arms and crew served weapons to US Forces. They are the big player in the game and were just missing supplying the handgun component. They pulled out "all stops" to try and win the handgun contract. As was mentioned before, some criteria of the RFP was changed part way through the testing. In some ways the FN product was the only submission to meet the original criteria, example no armorer work / parts replacement needed on the gun for 30K. The other submissions couldn't meet that criteria. In the end they were not successful.

*Please note Sassybee doesn't like the P320.

Back on topic, as I mentioned before, what gun enthusiasts think is good or like or test or promote isn't the same as large company endurance testing, with budgets in the 10's of thousands of dollars often with scientific methods and expertise. Shooting guns for sport with buddies doesn't show the same level of data as carrying one operationally daily in much larger sample numbers. Testing trials and results from US Federal LE are confidential and only available to other LE through NDA's. Keep that in mind when someone says this Federal Agency is the best or most stringent, if they haven't signed an NDA they don't really know and are just speculating or reporting what they heard / read on the internet.

Back to the FN Testing, the HK USP proved to outperform every gun they attempted to destroy through torture and endurance testing....shocking the evaluation staff.

Rich
Click to expand...

So you like the 320, a gun that discharges on it's own? From a company that intentionally failed to inform the public that their guns were unsafe, then offered a bullsh*t "voluntary upgrade" rather than a recall(for financial reasons)?

You often think you know everything Rich but that's not always true. The FBI testing protocols are widely accepted(In LE circles, perhaps not in the great city of Lethbridge) as the most thorough ones around. The FBI spends far more money than any manufacturer(who is biased) ever will when testing guns. LEO's carrying a gun everyday and qualifying once a year can hardly be called useful data as far as durability or reliability is concerned. You know as well as many here that most cops shoot to qualify and nothing more. Your average competitor easily overshadows LEO's on both round count and capability.

The USP performing well is no surprise. Unfortunately the USP is a hammer fired DA/SA gun and it's a brick. Very much outdated and far from the most compact or ergonomic option.
 
Sassybee,

You love Glock, nice guns. You dislike Sig P320's that's ok. As far as we know you have never served operationally in any capacity. If this is true, you bring the perspective of an enthusiast / (competitive?) shooter, which is valuable but narrow in scope. I'm not sure if you have the ability to sign an NDA for the FBI handgun trials, know any FBI Agents or anyone in their Firearms Training Cell, if you do please enlighten us?

I endeavor to bring another perspective to the discussion as I have extensive competition and operational experience.
Anyways....back on topic, the most durable handgun, shall we rely on someone's favorite gun or learn about destructive testing done by other entities that have more resources and expertise than enthusiast shooters?

Rich

For the record, I don't know everything, except that Sassybee doesn't like the Sig P320.
 
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Rich the 320 is in service with the US Army because it met all the requirements set out by the Army as you know. That alone is reason enough to support the gun. I love it when the only issue folks who have negative wet dreams about the gun can only come up with an issue that has long since been corrected.

If I was in need of a service weapon the 320 would be in my holster. There are several others that could be there as well. I compete (storm I use rather lightly), with a Walther, so it's LEO model might even be a better choice.

For most of us what military and law enforcement use is nice to know but hardly a buying driver for me. I can afford to buy what I like for what I do. PVC Smith gets what the government gives them. That said there is no reason for Sassybee to get his knickers in a twist when someone buys a non glock pistol. The latter on its 5th attempt to solve the issues generated by the previous attempt at perfection. Lol.

Take Care
Bob
 
If people are so up in arms about the generations of Glocks, how many pistols have been in production for the same span of time. Polymer only in this list, please.
I am not a Glock fanboy, I do own 2. I am not a HK fanboy, I own 2 and I am not a Walther fanboy, I own 1. I do not have a S&W yet, nor do I have a SiG.
 
baldabe said:
If people are so up in arms about the generations of Glocks, how many pistols have been in production for the same span of time. Polymer only in this list, please.
I am not a Glock fanboy, I do own 2. I am not a HK fanboy, I own 2 and I am not a Walther fanboy, I own 1. I do not have a S&W yet, nor do I have a SiG.
Click to expand...

If you are going by name S&W M&P dates back to the 19th Century. My point is Glock pistols all look pretty much the same but the changes made within each generation were and are significant. Just because there is a Gen 4 Glock 17 and a Gen 5 Glock 17 doesn't make them the same pistol. Oh they look like each other but they are not the same gun. The Gen 5 slide has been improved to prevent the nose of the slide from cracking under heavy use, The Gen 5 trigger group is new as is the frame. Other than those changes I guess the gun is the same.

To your question I would suggest the S&W M&P. It went through several different versions as a revolver before morphing into a polymer striker fired pistol. The Model 10 aka M&P was designed in 1899 about 86 years before the Glock. I own both versions of the M&P a 5" revolver and a M&P Pro circa 2008.

I vote the M&P to be the oldest currently produced pistol.

Take care

Bob
PP (Maybe the Colt Peacemaker in 45 Colt is the oldest but has not yet morphed into a polymer pistol. Now that CZ owns Colt you just never know....)

PPP Or for the win, the Colt 1911 beats the Glock by 71 years.
 
Canuck44 said:
If you are going by name S&W M&P dates back to the 19th Century. My point is Glock pistols all look pretty much the same but the changes made within each generation were and are significant. Just because there is a Gen 4 Glock 17 and a Gen 5 Glock 17 doesn't make them the same pistol. Oh they look like each other but they are not the same gun. The Gen 5 slide has been improved to prevent the nose of the slide from cracking under heavy use, The Gen 5 trigger group is new as is the frame. Other than those changes I guess the gun is the same.

To your question I would suggest the S&W M&P. It went through several different versions as a revolver before morphing into a polymer striker fired pistol. The Model 10 aka M&P was designed in 1899 about 86 years before the Glock. I own both versions of the M&P a 5" revolver and a M&P Pro circa 2008.

I vote the M&P to be the oldest currently produced pistol.

Take care

Bob
PP (Maybe the Colt Peacemaker in 45 Colt is the oldest but has not yet morphed into a polymer pistol. Now that CZ owns Colt you just never know....)

PPP Or for the win, the Colt 1911 beats the Glock by 71 years.
Click to expand...

All interesting info. But I specifically said polymer pistols.
The closest comparison I can give for you is a Volkswagen old Beetle, air-cooled rear engine went through a few generations but was always an air-cooled rear engine car. Best seller until the Toyota Corolla claimed the spot. But the Corolla was made as a front engine rear wheel drive car, four wheel drive car and finally a front wheel drive car. A two door, a four door, a hatchback and a station wagon.
Just having the same name doesn't mean it's the same car. Or any product for that matter.
Apply that logic to the M&P.

B.
 
When I was looking to buy my first handgun I knew very little but did lots of research and came to the conclusion that handguns that soldiers and police day after day rely upon to protect themselves with should be more then good enough for me so I now own 3 a P226 with 9mm, 40/357sig, 22lr uppers, a Gen 5 Glock 17 and a CZ-97BD I am extremely happy with my purchases and have not had a single issue with any of them
 
1911 beat them all along with the Browning High power.
Heck the Browning is still in use by the Canadian Force and other army of the world.

More than one 1911 made it to 80000 rounds before needing a barrel.
 
ok he specifically referred us to polymer striker fired pistols. Well I am going out on the limb and will say virtually every flagship striker fired polymer pistol made today is no more reliable than any on the following list. None really have much more to offer than the other.

My list would be:

Walther PPQ M2 and it's variants
Berettas offering
CZ Offering
S&W M&P
Sig 320
Springfield
and Glock.

OTD the Walther has the best trigger of the bunch and the easiest sight system to replace.

All the major manufacturers have a model that comes Optic ready. All have the same capacity (10). All will do everything an enthusiastic amateur is ever going to ask the gun to do. All will run as long as you pull the trigger. None are more or less reliable than the other. Find one you like or the one the marketing department has convinced you to buy and Bob's Your Uncle.

The top shooters will win no matter what gun you put in their hands...same applies to average shooters. No matter what gun I use I finish middle of the pack Sharpshooter. I have a safe full of pistols to prove it.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
ok he specifically referred us to polymer striker fired pistols. Well I am going out on the limb and will say virtually every flagship striker fired polymer pistol made today is no more reliable than any on the following list. None really have much more to offer than the other.

My list would be:

Walther PPQ M2 and it's variants
Berettas offering
CZ Offering
S&W M&P
Sig 320
Springfield
and Glock.

OTD the Walther has the best trigger of the bunch and the easiest sight system to replace.

All the major manufacturers have a model that comes Optic ready. All have the same capacity (10). All will do everything an enthusiastic amateur is ever going to ask the gun to do. All will run as long as you pull the trigger. None are more or less reliable than the other. Find one you like or the one the marketing department has convinced you to buy and Bob's Your Uncle.

The top shooters will win no matter what gun you put in their hands...same applies to average shooters. No matter what gun I use I finish middle of the pack Sharpshooter. I have a safe full of pistols to prove it.

Take Care

Bob
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Totally agree with your analysis Bob. My contention was that none of them are really far better than the other. All are pretty much the same.
As for the list of pistols, when I wrote I do not own a S&W or SiG, I should have added "yet". I am not biased towards any make or against any make. All are good enough for me and the kind of shooting I do.
 
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