My 22 shoots 1/2" groups at 50 yards/meters all day! Really? Prove it!
- Thread starter Underthegun
- Start date
to me lol.I wouldn't sweat it, just go out and replicate on a piece of paper with targets. With shooting like that, no doubt you will be on the list in no time.
elimsprint
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kelowna, BC
I'm with you minimouse, 5 shots in a group is a 5 shot group, no matter how they got there and what you were aiming at. IMHO at least. Great shooting BTW.
Just take a full sheet of paper and cover most of it so you have the small target you like and do the exact same thing and lets see what UTG has to say about it.
You are wrong and I was being generous... not only is it not a five shot group but can't be counted as a group at all, since your first shot which creates the aiming point can't be differentiated from the following four shots.
I am not denigrating your shooting, you can clearly shoot... I am pointing out your haphazard, sloppy target system... if it is casual shooting, use whatever you want... but then don't try to pass it off as "official" in any capacity, even a casual online game.
As said above... just use a proper target and shoot five clean groups... no controversy in that.
It isn't whether it is easier or harder... it is simply not a "group" in any measureable sense... since the aiming point was established as part of the "group" and cannot be differentiated from the subsequent four shots...
This is not a personal slur, it is not to disparage the achievement of minimouse, who says he is "just happy to have done the feat." It is a simple reality.
I agree, using the first shot as an aiming point means that it's not actually a 5 shot group. EDIT: And good point, like you say it can't even be counted as a four shot group, because you don't know which shot was the aiming point.
Each shot is intended to hit a target (or a point offset from the target by using scope adjustment, if one wants to keep the aiming point clean). Each shot will land some distance away from the target, with that distance representing some combination of mechanical accuracy limitations, shooter skill, and wind. A five shot group is the sum of errors from five shots.
If you just randomly shoot a shot at paper and then use the hole as an aiming point, then that first shot by definition is the target, and thus doesn't contribute to the sum of errors in a group. Arguing that it does is circular reasoning (begging the question). I like using blue sharpie to make little dots as aiming points. If I were to draw a 0.22" circle in blue sharpie on paper and use it as the aiming point for 4 shots, can I call it a 5 shot group?
However, in general (but not in this challenge) you can use a bullet hole as an aiming point. If I were to do that I'd shoot a shot, adjust my scope to +5 MOA elevation, and then shoot 5 shots while aiming at that first bullet hole. That would give me a 5-shot group located 2.5" above my aiming shot (assuming this is 50 yds).
Each shot is intended to hit a target (or a point offset from the target by using scope adjustment, if one wants to keep the aiming point clean). Each shot will land some distance away from the target, with that distance representing some combination of mechanical accuracy limitations, shooter skill, and wind. A five shot group is the sum of errors from five shots.
If you just randomly shoot a shot at paper and then use the hole as an aiming point, then that first shot by definition is the target, and thus doesn't contribute to the sum of errors in a group. Arguing that it does is circular reasoning (begging the question). I like using blue sharpie to make little dots as aiming points. If I were to draw a 0.22" circle in blue sharpie on paper and use it as the aiming point for 4 shots, can I call it a 5 shot group?
However, in general (but not in this challenge) you can use a bullet hole as an aiming point. If I were to do that I'd shoot a shot, adjust my scope to +5 MOA elevation, and then shoot 5 shots while aiming at that first bullet hole. That would give me a 5-shot group located 2.5" above my aiming shot (assuming this is 50 yds).
I agree, I think it's a very relevant consideration when thinking about groups and accuracy.
Agreed. A gentlmen's dissagreement, if you will.
When skimming through the posts and first seeing MM's target without an aiming point, my automatic assumption was that it was shot from a lead sled or vise that would just clamp the rifle in place firmly, allowing a tight 5 shot group without requiring and aiming point. But that's not what's pictured below.
Either way, regardless of the target or technique, it's a far better showing than I could put forward, so hat's off to you sir.
Good day.
elimsprint
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kelowna, BC
So if I put a !/4" dot on a target and hit it dead on with the first shot so that only the bullet hole remains visible and then continue to shoot 4 more rounds into that same hole it's not a 5 shot group?
And if that's a 5 shot group how is minimouses any different?
I don't see anywhere in the rules that state the aiming mark must remain visible after shooting the group.
To anyone who uses their gun for hunting or plinking you want it to shoot to the point of aim so hitting something 5 times at your point of aim is desirable is it not?
And if that's a 5 shot group how is minimouses any different?
I don't see anywhere in the rules that state the aiming mark must remain visible after shooting the group.
To anyone who uses their gun for hunting or plinking you want it to shoot to the point of aim so hitting something 5 times at your point of aim is desirable is it not?
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elimsprint
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kelowna, BC
I didn't miss anything, kind of like minimouse.
You know, at first I thought hoytcanon was being ridiculous, since minimouse's target was like.. so last week... But after a little thought I actually agree with hoyt. Assuming the rifle is incredibly accurate (as it seems to be) and is sighted in dead zero at 50 yards. Shooting a random shot to establish an aiming point for the remaining four shots gives a 20% chance per group of this "sighter" shot to absorb a "flier" that would have increased the group size if shooting at a printed aiming point. However, shot #1 can land wherever it pleases to no ill effect towards the group, and if it was indeed a "flier" the shooter can then "chase" the flier with his otherwise accurate rifle, having got the bad shot out of the way, enjoying a good % chance that the other 4 shots will not be "fliers".
I would modify the rules to clarify that targets must have 5 distinct, permanently printed or otherwise marked aiming points, and that one cannot "shoot" to establish an aiming point.
I would modify the rules to clarify that targets must have 5 distinct, permanently printed or otherwise marked aiming points, and that one cannot "shoot" to establish an aiming point.
