Need a bear gun...Marlin Lever?

Due to the smaller meplat size they would not be my first choice as a bear stopping bullet.
Click to expand...

..............A meplat of 10mm is small???:eek: Are you hunting bears or elephants??:D

They are excellent for plinking, target shooting, practicing or doing what I was doing and they are priced very reasonably as well as Lois gives excellent service.
Click to expand...

........Don't condemn their product for hunting until you have tried em.i had a moose drop stone cold dead at 125 yards with the Bullet Barns 245 grain .38-55 bullet and the meplat on that bullet doesn't come close in size to 10mm.
 
Last edited:
I had to go back and reread my post that you are refering to. How in any way did you get the idea that I was condemning their bullets?

My statement was that there are wider meplated bullets available which would be my choice for hunting. Every comment I made praised them and their bullets.

Will a 40 cal meplat kill? Most definately but not as effeciently as one with a wider meplat.

There have been so many different studies done on the width of the meplat mostly centered around handgun cartridges now that proves beyond any doubt that the wider the meplat the better the killing performance.

When I hunt or carry a firearm for protection that is loaded with hard cast bullets I want the best designed bullets available period.

Over the last 4 months I have been working with Lois in regards to designing a more efficient wider meplated bullet mold not only for .458" diameter bullets but for 10mm and .452" handgun bullets as well. The only reason that we have not brought a mold into Canada yet is because Mountain Molds who manufactors these specialty designed bullet molds is relocating and will not be making any more molds until about August.

Keep checking Bullet Barns web site you may see that the bullet designs that Lois, my buddy Mike and I are working on may be available for you to buy as well someday.
 
Last edited:
I had to go back and reread my post that you are refering to. How in any way did you get the idea that I was condemning their bullets
Click to expand...


...i guess condemning was a wrong word. I just am very pleased with the product and have some experience with them hunting wise thats all.

...Thanks for the heads up of a possible new bullet. I will keep an eye out. They have a great product and i like praise good products by good people.:D
 
mdbuckle said:
Thanks for sharing that m1978! It's nice to be able to compare the different calibers in the table.
Click to expand...

no problem. goes to show what a large difference there is between the recoil of the 444 and 45-70. the 'wimp' loads of the 45-70 are not far behind a hot 240 grain deer load in the 444 (in fact you can see that the 300 gr load is virtually the same, but with a far worse trajectory), and as you can see, when it is loaded up to maximum potential the 45-70 (look at the 450 loading) can become a rather feisty brute to shoulder. the 300 grain loading in the 45-70 wouldn't be that bad in reality, and would be a dandy performer on deer i would wager with that big hollowpoint, and in truth would do nicely for most bear you would encouner as well. with the fine 350 grain hornady bullet the 400 grainers become almost pointless. i know i have been extolling the virtues of the 444, but there is just something about the 45-70 that is very appealing. not that it matters much with these pumpkin lobbers, but the 444 also has an advantage regarding bullet trajectory as well.

to me, the 444 just makes more sense. it does the same job, but with a lighter bullet and less recoil. in essence a 265 gr 444 equals the performance of a 300 45-70 and a 300 gr 444 equals a 350 45-70 (though the 350 interlock is a tougher bullet than the 444s 300 gr xtp). considering these 2 calibers seems to be almost very much like the .270 vs .30-06 debate. perhaps it is more a matter of personal preference as both will do about the same job on the animal being shot.

i don't know if this is an accurate speculation, but i was thinking that perhaps the 444s faster velocity might also be of an advantage when the bullet hits, resulting in more dramatic bullet expansion (when comparing the 265 vs 300 for example). at any rate, i'm sure you'll be happy with either caliber, but for me i chose the 444 mainly due to the fact that it still hit like a train and didn't hammer the living hell out of me due to recoil. another rifle i own and like is the 350 magnum in a bolt, which recoils even less. a great caliber but that is for another thread.

oh, btw, i just encountered this very thread on another board, but the question was over their efficacy on sasquatch. how about that?
 
Last edited:
Camp Cook said:
This is so simple to respond to. ;)

The 45-70 can do everything the 444 can and everything that it can't. :cool:
Click to expand...

Cant argue much with that statement :D

m1978, you seem to be trying to sell yourself on the .444. If that is what you want , have at er! But you are going to have a very hard time convincing most of us that a 444 is better than a 45-70.

Buy what is best suited for you, if the 444 works best for you then go nutz! I definately know that a 444 does not work for myself and my needs and I would never buy one.

Good luck :D
 
Looking at my loading manuals, I don't see how the .444-265 (SD .205) out performs the .45-70-300 (SD .204). Velocity, when both cartridges are loaded for the Marlin rifles, is about even, which doesn't amount to much since most .45-70 shooters have discovered the advantages of heavier bullets.
 
Camp Cook said:
This is so simple to respond to. ;)

The 45-70 can do everything the 444 can and everything that it can't. :cool:
Click to expand...

what can a 45-70 do that a 444 can't? going for cape buffalo and elephant any time soon? and truthfully, with hard cast 405 grainers, the 444 would not be a slouch in that department either.:rolleyes:
 
crazy_davey said:
Cant argue much with that statement :D

m1978, you seem to be trying to sell yourself on the .444. If that is what you want , have at er! But you are going to have a very hard time convincing most of us that a 444 is better than a 45-70.

Buy what is best suited for you, if the 444 works best for you then go nutz! I definately know that a 444 does not work for myself and my needs and I would never buy one.

Good luck :D
Click to expand...

i'm not trying to convince you, i'm offering mdbuckle practical advice.:D never said 444 was better, said it did the same job for all intents and purposes as a 45-70 with less recoil. i have had and used both cartridges in the field and went with the 444. like i said, it does the same job with less recoil. as for myself, i'm already sold on the caliber. it is unfortunate that you must bash the old 444 when you have never tried it.

kind of like the someone stating that since he has always owned a chevy, he would never try a ford. if you are able to be open minded and step back, you will see there is not a great difference between the two.
 
Last edited:
Boomer said:
Looking at my loading manuals, I don't see how the .444-265 (SD .205) out performs the .45-70-300 (SD .204). Velocity, when both cartridges are loaded for the Marlin rifles, is about even, which doesn't amount to much since most .45-70 shooters have discovered the advantages of heavier bullets.
Click to expand...

since you seem to be addicted to facts and figures, here are a few for you.

300 gr 444= .233
350 gr 45-70= .238

335 444= .260
350 gr 444= .275
400 gr 45-70= .272

405 gr 444= .314
500 gr 45-70= .341

on paper, the 45-70 only walks away at the end when you are using massive 500 grain projectiles (cape buffalo time!). maybe you guys shoot the big 500 grainers? that is the only bullet on paper that will outperform the 444 by a significant margin. consider also, the 444 will usually drive the bullet with the same sectional density at a higher velocity as well. since bear was the animal to be hunted, can you tell me that a 265 or 300 grain jacketed projectile will not get the job done? if the caliber did not work it would have died a long time ago. as i mentioned, i am still somewhat enamoured with the 45-70, its a ###y caliber, but when i step back and critcally analyse the caliber, i cannot say i have ever noted a faster stop with my 45-70 than with the 444.

mdbuckle

you actually might want to buy the 45-70 first. i know even after owning the 444 i got hooked in by the press so i went out and bought a 45-70. it never saw much use and i sold it after a few years, without regret. funny thing is, i saw it last fall in the buy and sell so i guess the guy who bought it wasn't too thrilled about the recoil either. if you want to go by muzzle energy and book figures, it is a savage recoiler for the energy which comes out the barrel, but i would not base my judgement solely on book figures. still, it might be best for you to get one and if you find it too stiff, you can "move down" (bring on the comments) to the 444.

best thing would be if you could find some guys locally with either caliber at a range, then you could take a 'test drive'.
 
Last edited:
M1978 -

Thank-you - you finally admit that the .444 needs a decent bullet to make it work to it's potential! The best thing about the .444 was that it got folks interested in hot rodding the .45-70. When loaded with heavy bullets, the .444 can't match the velocity...sort of like 150 gr bullets loaded in the .30-06 and the .270 - the bigger caliber can always send em faster because same weight bullets are longer in smaller calibers, so at the same pressure have more friction in the barrel. In your example the .444-405 would have a velocity of 1500 and wouldn't hit the side of a barn due to it's slow twist. The .458-500 from a hot loaded .45-70 is accurate and powerful at about 1850 generating less that 40,000 psi.

Love to stay and chat but I've got to catch a plane.
 
Boomer said:
M1978 -

Thank-you - you finally admit that the .444 needs a decent bullet to make it work to it's potential! The best thing about the .444 was that it got folks interested in hot rodding the .45-70. When loaded with heavy bullets, the .444 can't match the velocity...sort of like 150 gr bullets loaded in the .30-06 and the .270 - the bigger caliber can always send em faster because same weight bullets are longer in smaller calibers, so at the same pressure have more friction in the barrel. In your example the .444-405 would have a velocity of 1500 and wouldn't hit the side of a barn due to it's slow twist. The .458-500 from a hot loaded .45-70 is accurate and powerful at about 1850 generating less that 40,000 psi.

Love to stay and chat but I've got to catch a plane.
Click to expand...

i admit nothing. why move to a 500 grainer to do the job a 265-300 grain bullet can do on a thin skinned animal. 400 grain bullet in a 1:20 twist will work fine, you are talking about the older micro-groove bbl when you say twist will not work. a 500 grain bullet at 1850 is pretty spectacular, i just noticed load data showing between 1600-1800 for the marlin. thats pretty spectacular stuff, and were i going to africa, well i think that would be a pretty good choice!

however i have noted that aside from beartoothbullets, where it seems you have been getting your info, buffalo bore on the other hand leaves their bullets in the 1600 fps range, as do most other loading sources i have encountered, and they consider the using a 500 grain for the deepest penetration on the biggest game, ie cape buffalo and elephant.
 
Last edited:
This rocks :D Haven't had so much fun since the old Marlin Talk Forum was alive.

Truth is, there isn't a lot of difference between the triple 4 and the 45-70 Gubment. Yes, the 45-70 walks away in performance in over 350 grain bullet category. Much like as said the 30-06 leaves the 270 Winchester behind in 150 grain and up bullets. I don't think mr. blackbear is going to be able to tell the difference between these big bores with a decently placed shot :)
 
Salty said:
This rocks :D Haven't had so much fun since the old Marlin Talk Forum was alive.

Truth is, there isn't a lot of difference between the triple 4 and the 45-70 Gubment. Yes, the 45-70 walks away in performance in over 350 grain bullet category. Much like as said the 30-06 leaves the 270 Winchester behind in 150 grain and up bullets. I don't think mr. blackbear is going to be able to tell the difference between these big bores with a decently placed shot :)
Click to expand...

I do agree with Salty on this one...

I have my mind set on a 45-70 Marlin guide rifle with the ported barrel. I think I am going to order the Lee Aniversary Kit at the same time. What powder do you recommend for the 45-70?

I would love to see a side by side of the .444 and 45-70 cartridges just for comparison sake if that is possible
 
why the ported version??

from what I remember reading back when Marlin dropped the ports from the 1895G, they were very loud, and didn't decrease muzzle jump to the point where they were that useful, thus, they were discontinued.

I personally wouldnt touch a gun with ports or any sort of muzzle brake type of contraption. :)
​
 
From what I have read, the increase in noise to the shooter is minimal and it does decrease muzzle jump slightly. The gun is much louder to bystanders though... I have no experience with porting, so input is greatly appreciated.
 
Last edited:
mdbuckle, are you going for the stainless version, it looks pretty sharp. i don't have experience with the guide rifle but i pray for your sake it has a better pad than the regular one. if not the best advice i can give is to go out and get yourself a decelerator, and 300-350 grain bullets just seemed to be a lot more pleasant to shoot as well.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom