My apologies once again! After browsing this section of the forum I obviously failed to realized that it was reserved for Benchrest rifle and shooter discussions...maybe we should get the mods to rename it because the term "Precision Rifles" is a little vague...
New to precison rifles - looking for advice!
- Thread starter johnny1984
- Start date
My apologies once again! After browsing this section of the forum I obviously failed to realized that it was reserved for Benchrest rifle and shooter discussions...maybe we should get the mods to rename it because the term "Precision Rifles" is a little vague...
- Location
- Northern Ontario
It shows that you have done lots of practice and spent big bucks on a custom rifle and ammo , not what the op is talking about 3 round groups are a good way to judge the accuracy of a factory rifle and a beginner shooter you have to start somewhere !
Sweet baby Jebus!!!! That thing is a work of art. Who does your fluting for you?
Thanks for sharing!
I am brand new to precision shooting as well and my wife would have may balls in her purse if I bought another gun so soon. So if money is tight, do what I did. Trade work and what not for gun/accesories. So far I have gotten rem 700 AAC SD ( trade for some work) muzzle brake (christmas gift) harris bipod (bonus from a prior gun trade) 20 moa rail (trade for work) and have purchased a scope on my own dime $500 and a buddy is giving me some rings. Just a little smithin to do on the rifle (install brake and tac knob) and there will be a sweet shooter for under $800. Then wait for this crap ass snow to melt build a deck for a buddy and booooom new stock. The only way to build a precision shooter for under a grand.
arcticcathonda
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
So your time is worthless?
ok you got me that is a precision rifle, so ill be expecting your post in underthegun's .75 or .5 in group threads so we can see more than 1 three shot group
if you think you can do it, if not i understand
Alex
if you think you can do it, if not i understand
Alex
...200 yards with a $537.00 Remington SPS Varmint (bedded into a Remington VLS stock mind you)...kinda makes some big dollar rifles blush a little! LOL!
The scope was/is a Bushnell Elite 3200 4-12 x 40AO that cost me $365 with cheap rings and bases, the VLS stock cost me $115, the JB Weld for the bedding was $9.
Total: $1026.00
My apologies you were right and I was wrong! It isn't possible to have a precision rifle for under $1000...except that in factory trim with the cheap plastic stock and much more expensive GMM ammo it would shoot 0.981" 3 shot groups at the same distance for a grand total of $911.00...but I didn't have a camera then to take pics, so it never happened right?!?!?
I posted that pic to show that a cheap rifle with proper loads (and I use that term loosly...explaination below!) can indeed be precise...and anyone with any amount of time spent behind a trigger will agree. I could shoot a bunch 10 shot one hole groups at 25 yds and tell the world it was done at 200, 300 or even 500 yards. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else...all I'm saying is you can get a precision rifle for under $1000!!! Obviously, your definition of "precision" is different than mine (and many others that commented here)...the fact that this section of the forum is littered with Rem 700P and other "cheap non-precision" rifles confirms that!
Had you paid attention to the info written on the target I posted, rather than just make an assumption about group size, rifles and whatever else, you'd have realized that my load uses a cheap hunting bullet that cannot come close to the consistency and quality of a match version...my brass is regular cheap production not match, the primers are cheap not match, powder is affordable but again there is better stuff out there for competition! The info that isn't on the target is: the loads are assembled with a Lee Aniversary Kit, a Lee Pacesetter 3-die set, Cases are full-length sized and then trimmed with a Lee Case Trimmer, case length gauge and holder mounted to my cordless drill! Primer pockets are left as is but cleaned with the Lee primer pocket tool and the flash holes are untouched. The bullets and cases are not sorted by weight nor are the necks turned. At the end of the day it's a cheap production rifle that shoots under 3/4" 3-shot groups with a cheap and half-a$$ed assembled load at 200yds and is still holding a hair over 2.25" at 447yds from a half-a$$ed prone position shooting of the bipod. With match components, a properly and carefully assembled load and a shooter that has a little more pride than myself, the rifle will without a doubt do much better and will out shoot rifles that cost many times more!
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It takes a real ignorant SOB to act like their own idea of a large group of shooting is the only thing that should be discussed in a particular forum. Its childish to act like your definition of precision is THE definition of precision. For a lot of us its simply shooting the tightest groups we can. If we have a particular rifle for that then its our precision rifle. Remember when uchi started shooting for groups with his SPS .30-06? Then he started hand loading and we all watched as he progressed. To him that was the start of his precision shooting and nobody tried to kick him out of here or cometely discredit what he was doing because he didn't do it by your holy standards. Like come on.
BTW Gun boy, who did the helical fluting on your barrels? Its beautiful.
BTW Gun boy, who did the helical fluting on your barrels? Its beautiful.
I agree that being as precise as you can be with the equipment you have is what precision shooting is all about but I think things got a bit off track because the poster with the inexpensive gear seemed to be having a go at those who had spent more money as though they had, in some way, wasted that expenditure. I'm sure it wasn't intended to come across that way but that is how it could have been interpreted. It's one of the perils of email/internet forums as the written word is out there absent any gesture or other indication that would often accompany the spoken word.
Back to the original post, I think going the route of an SPS Varmint is a great idea. 223 or 243, but note that the 223 barrel is a 12 twist, so it won't work well with heavier bullets (I tried.). The Bushnell fixed 10x scope with good Burris rings and bases, and a bipod, would probably get you in under your $1000 budget. Bed the action and you will have a great starter package. Good luck!
Oh make no mistake about it...it was intended...in the comment I posted with the pic! LOL! Sometimes, we (myself included) who can afford the expensive stuff, forget that pratice and not our big dollar rifles is biggest part of what makes us precise. An $8 000, 0.25 MOA, rifle is only that if the nut behind the trigger is capable of making the rifle as such. Jerry did a good job of trying to remind us of that by mentioning the use of a .22LR...which went right over many heads! If we loan our tack drivers to any newbie it will no longer be capable of such accuracy because that newbie behind the trigger doesn't have the know how to make the rifle perform as it can. Yes, at 100 yards they will quickly get the hang of it but once you extend the ranges and add the wind, mirage, temperature, etc...that rifle is no more accurate than if you loaned the shooter a $400 1.5 MOA capable deer rifle.
Do big dollar gun owners get insulted when they are outshot by someone with much more affordable equipment? You bet they do!
Do they have a valid reason for being insulted or believing that they are superior because they have an +$8000 rifle? Absolutely not!
I stand by my first comment...if the OP wants to get involved in precision shooting and precision rifles for under $1000 then the Remington 700 SPS Varmint is the smartest way to go!
And Tomochan...even though I just quoted you...I'm not pointing my finger at you! I'm sure you have enough trigger time to understand all of the above.
No worries - I'm actually in agreement with you both with respect to trigger time and with respect to the best choice for a new shooter. As mentioned in my earlier response "That's about the best advice you can get. You could also get a SPS Tactical which is, essentially, the same rifle. Bone stock it will shoot well enough and later as VLT79 has said it is easily upgrade-able."
I get your point that you CAN get a good shooting rifle and optic set-up for under $1000, but in my opinion showing someone one small group is setting them up for disappointment.
A sub 1/2 moa group out of a factory rifle is very good but that is not the norm. I would rather tell someone that is getting into shooting to expect 1.5 to .75 moa out of most factory guns unless you get a lemon or get lucky like you did and get a really good one.
so if he is looking at $1000, thats about 600 for a gun and 400 for a scope, that eliminates so many good guns, like the tikka, savages with the target action, remington R5.
why wouldn't you tell him what your gun averages rather than showing him the smallest group.
iv shot a 3 shot group that measured .178 with my savage f/tr at 100yards, but i don't tell people you can get a gun that shoots in the .1 s for $1150 I would tell them it averages .5 to .6
A sub 1/2 moa group out of a factory rifle is very good but that is not the norm. I would rather tell someone that is getting into shooting to expect 1.5 to .75 moa out of most factory guns unless you get a lemon or get lucky like you did and get a really good one.
so if he is looking at $1000, thats about 600 for a gun and 400 for a scope, that eliminates so many good guns, like the tikka, savages with the target action, remington R5.
why wouldn't you tell him what your gun averages rather than showing him the smallest group.
iv shot a 3 shot group that measured .178 with my savage f/tr at 100yards, but i don't tell people you can get a gun that shoots in the .1 s for $1150 I would tell them it averages .5 to .6
Who said it was the smallest group and why did you assume it was? That's one of the largest groups it shoots...with that particular load and with it it averages 0.893" @ 200 yds...yes for 5 shots. I never test anything at less than that so I have no what is does at 100yds nor do I care. Even high end rifles won't shoot all ammo with consistent accuracy...one load will do sub 0.250" and the next load will do no better than 0.750", granted the high end rifle will have less fluctuation in group size than a cheap rifle. As for the pic I posted the only reason I took and have that is because it was the first three shots I fired with that particular load. When developing I don't waste any more ammo than necessary...3 shots at that distance in that tight a cluster proved it was a match for that rifle...truth is I've been shooting it as is for 2 years and have yet to find the time to fine tune it and see if it can be improved...or even bother trying to find a better load with match quality components.
I have shot 6 different SPS Varmint rifles (2x.308 Win, 2x.223 Rem, 1x.22-250 Rem and 1x.17 Rem FB) and the worst one was still averaging 1.284" @ 200yds with it's favorite load...so although not 0.5 MOA or less it's still pretty damned impressive for an over the counter +/-$600 rifle with tuperware funiture!
At no point did OP ever specify the need for a sub 0.5" MOA rifle! And nowhere does it say that a "precision rifle" is by definition one that shoots sub 0.5" MOA. Now, because the OP asked for a "precision rifle" with a scope for less $1000, I suggested the SPS Varmint because in my experience you cannot find anything else in that price range that can compete with or compare to it. 6 out of 6 rifles I played with were sub-MOA...most flirting the half-MOA mark with their prefered loads! That's pretty good consistency in my books and highly doubtful that it was just a coincidence or a fluke!
X2.... Good combo for the money..Or a savage 10fp in .223 it has a 1/9 twist better for heavier rounds. Im in the same boat as the OP. I am also trying to do a low budget midrange rig. I have the platform which is a savage 10fp in .223 with a bell and carlson stock that I got off EE. But for me Im trying to find a Falcon menace 10x42 scope. To the OP I also shoot MIL-Sur rifles, and even with a low dollar midrange rig, its awesome how much better they shoot then the old Mil-sur rifles. Best of luck on your hunt, and dont listen to the gun snots out there. Just get out shooting.
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My understanding of precision shooting is <1 MOA. Either aiming for 1 MOA or shooting under it CONSISTENTLY. Being able to hit a 10" target at 1000yds makes it a practical basis as far as I'm concerned. I had an SKS with some piece of crap scope on it... handloading and trying my hardest never would have got me even close to "precision".... unless there is a participation award out there that I'm not aware of...
