NORC 223/556 ammo jamming up my Norc 10.5 inch AR

Yup, I have had several instances where the primer pops out in my Dpms Upper 16" AR. It seems to always fall into the locking lugs and cause a jam. I just tried 100 rds. through a 10.5" Nea and had no issues. I think it is strictly an ammo issue, maybe the primers are undersized. I will not use this stuff for matches any more. Only for training.
 
mississaugagunnut said:
Yup, I have had several instances where the primer pops out in my Dpms Upper 16" AR. It seems to always fall into the locking lugs and cause a jam. I just tried 100 rds. through a 10.5" Nea and had no issues. I think it is strictly an ammo issue, maybe the primers are undersized. I will not use this stuff for matches any more. Only for training.
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lot # ???
 
Here is my theory. I found that a bunch of norc 223 rims are over sized. On my mini14 they would not allow the extractor to fully lock on and would not fully eject the round and cause a stove pipe. What if the problem in the ARs is that with the over sized rims its forcing the back of the round to not fully touch the bolt face leaving a gap that allows the primers to pop. The number of popping rounds coincide with the number of over sized rims i discovered in my 95. Some of these rims were so large they would not fit in my shell holder on my press....
 
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Interesting comments about the problem in DPMS and the oversize rim claim. Exactly what dimension is oversized? Give us a sketch?

I bought 2 crates and have a virgin DPMS waiting to eat some. Maybe a bit of time with the vernier looking over a sample of the casings is in order while I'm waiting to get to the range? I've only opened one can as I was expecting to keep the others for longer term storage.
 
bacardi said:
It's suspicious to me that only one posted the lot number and yet the remaining who reported the problem have been silence hmmmmm
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Why suspicious? We had problems with the ammo but it isn't like Norinco is known for quality or consistency. There seemed little point in recording lots we simply stopped using the ammo. I would also point out that we have found API ammo and 12.7mm ammo in crates otherwise marked as 7.62x39mm ball ammo.
 
Shooting Centre said:
Why suspicious? We had problems with the ammo but it isn't like Norinco is known for quality or consistency. There seemed little point in recording lots we simply stopped using the ammo. I would also point out that we have found API ammo and 12.7mm ammo in crates otherwise marked as 7.62x39mm ball ammo.
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Sorry for the confusion, but what I meant was there are few people here and plus Canada Ammo asked the people who posted here with the problem about their lot #, but so far only one responded. Canam was trying to see if they bought the ammo from them and see if the problem exist only on certain lot. I think it is reasonable effort to root out the issue. I suspect that since only one person responded with the lot# and Canam also said that so far no one contacted them directly about similar issue then it could be Norinco ammos that were bought from different stores, or just simply people trying to bad mouthing Norinco ammos due to how good of a deal they are.

Just my observation and not necessarily the fact.
 
Jus rooted through my brass from a recent trip to the range,.. CJ95 no issues,though I was trying out a new Canadian made bolt carrier assy that I replaced the firing pin in before I went out..The orginal pin looked out of spec compared to a standard US made one..
 
Yup, Sure is worth the few cents you save over buying the American Eagle bulk or PMC or a couple of the other brands available. Hopefully some of the retailers start ordering more of the AE so it's not always sold out.

As Beltfed said in another thread, Garbage in-Garbage out.

I refuse to run that stuff in any of my .223's. It's just not worth the increased wear on the barrel (throat erosion from the hot load) and the problems with reliability that more and more people are reporting.
Some get a good crate and some get a bad one. I'll pay a little more and know that it's gonna be the same as the last one.

OP good luck with your problems but I bet it you clean all the little bits of crap out of your rifle and then use decent ammo your problems will go away. Once the rifle is fouled with all those little pieces it won't matter if you switch ammo.
 
so I took some measurements on the rims. remember that the worst stove pipes i abandoned on the range
spec for .223 outside rim is .377 the norc ammo swings from .369 to .389 of the 30 some odd pieces I measured
inside rim spec is .332, the norc brass measured from .329 to .338. anything .33 or big would not fit in my shell holder.

this inconsistency would explain why my extractor was having a hard time getting hold of it to fling out and why some brass dropped 6 inches from my gun and other flung 30 feet like most brass out of a mini1 4. it's to bad I didn't collect the complete stove pipes to see how bad they were out by.
this was all 95 stamped
 
bacardi said:
It's suspicious to me that only one posted the lot number and yet the remaining who reported the problem have been silence hmmmmm
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You busted me bacardi.. i'm actually an importer that deals exclusively with federal ammo.. i'm bad mouthing the norc stuff, so nobody buys it and i get rich.. :rolleyes:

but seriously folks, the stuff i have problems with comes in 40 round packs wrapped in paper.. there's no lot number on it, and nothing written on the wrapper.. i usually use the federal black box ammo (which i have a nice stockpile of) with no problems..

like i said before, i had shot at least a couple of hundred rounds of the norc stuff without problems previously, and just started having problems with the last batch of 200 rounds or so that i bought..

i used some yesterday in a 14.5 inch AR and lots of misfires (no hits on the firing pin).. i didnt get a chance to try it in my 20 inch AR.. maybe if i get out today, ill give it a shot.

there's no conspiracy here..

cr5: you are correct about the cleaning part.. i dont have any problems at all with the good ammo , after the bits of crap are cleaned out of the bolt..
 
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I bought 100 rounds to try before committing to larger purchase. All white box 20 rounds. CJ95 Lot# 26 The rounds looked good, very ballistic looking shape.

First observation right away was the cartridge overall length was longer than anything else in 223 I shoot by seeing them barely fit through my p-mags and GI's. I measured cartridge overall and they were only a couple thou under SAAMI max overall length, AE223 falls in the middle of the allowances. I then proceeded to do a check to ensure these weren't going to jam into my rifling on chambering. They didn't, so it was good to go to shoot.
Being a tad longer is not a bad thing providing they fit your mag and are reliable in this regard. It's like a hand-loader maxing out his cartridge overall to fit his magazine length and trying to get the bullet close to the rifling for a shorter jump and better accuracy.

On the range 60 rounds went well in my Norco 14.50" Actually I had some impressive 5 shot groups over irons at 200 meters, but we'll chaulk that up to the Norinco god shining on my sorry ass.

Primers a very heavily radiused compared to domestic small rifle primers. Checked over primers after firing and none have even fireformed at all in their pockets. All AE223 will start to show slight flattening around the center which is normal and usually means with the right primer material the manufacture has the load right on SAAMI max pressure. This leads me to believe these rounds Lot#26 are definitely not over pressure as some have observed. I did notice the small spalding's around the firing pin indent on a couple primers, confirming what some say about small bits of debris fouling up the bolt and action. A more regimental cleaning and alot more often is probably in order here.

Evil Pepper has noted differences in the rims. I like his posts, he tries always to document with data before drawing conclusions.

I see a more generous cut out on the Norinco compared to AE223 which I usually use. I don't see any extractor heavy marks on the norc brass fired in my AR compared to the AE223. Not sure if the bigger relief cut helps here, or if the extractor has an easier time getting the hot case out of the chamber because of a different port pressure and dwell time with this ammo compared to AE???

People talk of blown primers. There is a difference between a blown primer and a pierced primer. Usually a pierced primer is from a sharp firing pin with a heavy strike that pierces the primer, usually commercial soft ones, and allows some gases into the bolt and action on firing. Much like S&B 762NATO 147 and my Nork M-14 for comparison. This can happen with normal pressure loads.

A blown primer is when the load is way over pressure, the primer has completely filled the primer pocket like it was poured there, in fact has even oblonged the pocket allowing gas blow by, and every mark in the bolt face is engraved completely in the primer itself and the case head.

I'm not seeing any evidence here of over pressure, in fact primers that aren't even fully pushed back flush with the case head are common on mine, which usually means slightly under pressure. If anyone has had primers looking like they are backed out past the case head, but have not had their shape changed, is usually form a low pressure charge that barely sealed up the chamber and did not cause the case to stretch fully into the bolt face, thus allowing the primer itself to be pushed out of the pocket into the face.

If I get out today I will chrony this stuff compared to AE223 and S&B M193. I betting the Norc is going to be slow. I betting low pressure but I hope I prove myself wrong. It's a great price and functions fine so far. I'll inspect the bolt and lugs after every trip for debris that may cause and out of battery firing.

A note for caution with anyone using this ammo in .223 chambered sporting rifles. With the bullets on my lot out to SAAMI max already, check to ensure they aren't jamming into your rifling on chambering. My Nork AR's with supposedly generous NATO chambers and leades, isn't affected by this, but if these rounds are on for pressure(60,000ish), the tight .223Remington chamber and leade may get jammed tight with the bullet.

Just check the overall lengths and chamber the longest ones, checking the circumference of the bullets ogive with a magnifying glass, looking for the tell tale 5 shiny squares(5 groove barrel) meaning they are engaging the rifling hard.
 
Had the chance to shoot 100rnds of the Norc cj95 Saturday to my SBR( Noveske- if it will make a difference), seems normal to me, 100% reliability. Accuracy is not the best, but still manage to put all 10 rnds/ 10 shot- Xbulleye target @ 50 meters. Got my Spam can from CanAmmo last week.
 
had the same issue with my NEA over the weekend, also with the norinco spam can ammo.
piece of primer brass got stuck between the cam pin and the firing pin, bolt lugs wouldnt disengage via the charging handle, but was still able to fire normally.

managed to finally wiggle the cam pin loose, and lo-and-behold:
NEA15-primerjam_zps6fa3040e.jpg
 
I was just saying.

Perhaps Canam can track the lot # by contacting you and check the sales record.


valmet762 said:
You busted me bacardi.. i'm actually an importer that deals exclusively with federal ammo.. i'm bad mouthing the norc stuff, so nobody buys it and i get rich.. :rolleyes:

but seriously folks, the stuff i have problems with comes in 40 round packs wrapped in paper.. there's no lot number on it, and nothing written on the wrapper.. i usually use the federal black box ammo (which i have a nice stockpile of) with no problems..

like i said before, i had shot at least a couple of hundred rounds of the norc stuff without problems previously, and just started having problems with the last batch of 200 rounds or so that i bought..

i used some yesterday in a 14.5 inch AR and lots of misfires (no hits on the firing pin).. i didnt get a chance to try it in my 20 inch AR.. maybe if i get out today, ill give it a shot.

there's no conspiracy here..

cr5: you are correct about the cleaning part.. i dont have any problems at all with the good ammo , after the bits of crap are cleaned out of the bolt..
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I blasted some norc 223 yellow box today and had the bolt lock up a tiny bit before full battery. I was actually able to pull the trigger but the round didnt go off. It was a ##### to clear but when I got it apart I saw a tiny little mark on the primer, dunno why it happened but I think I'll attribute it this norc ammo


Ps how are you doing man?
 
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