Norinco M14 Blew Up
- Thread starter Dogleg
- Start date
Looks like a out of battery case to me as well.
CCI's Mil-Spec primers are what one needs with a M14/M1A or M1 rifle. Sure commercial primers do work the vast majority of the time, but if your reloading adding a extra layer of security is always good.
However it must be noted, when the M1 and M14/M1A series of rifles are made correctly, you'll have the ammunition's brass case distorting long before the gun itself gives. They were designed and tested to proof loads of 120,000 PSI, the nonsense you cannot reload to the pressures a bolt action is designed to handle (proofed to 70,000PSI general some to 80,000PSI) is a laugh. You have to worry more about the burn rate of the powder with a semi-automatic.
Powders burn at different rates, (no burn rate charts are useless in practice), you want a "X" amount of starting pressure which will propel the bullet down the barrel and you additionally want "Y" pressure range at the gas port to cycle the action to allow it to cycle properly. Go below that pressure required because the powder is all burnt out by the gas port and you wont cycle the rifle. Go above and except for the AR-15 sans Pistons of course (as all the additional pressure bleeds into the action the moment the bolt goes back allowing a higher range of port pressure without damage to the rifle) you will cause the pistol and any connectors/linkages to the bolt to cycle too fast possibly damaging by bending, shearing, or even ejecting the case before the pressure in the barrel drops.
Too slow of a burn rate so the powder is still burning with a high pressure at the rifles gas port on a M14/M1A or M1 rifle can cause the rifles bolt to go back too quickly and it ends up breaking the heel (where the serial number is) because of the slam back. Too fast of a burn rate and there isn't enough pressure at the gas port to cycle the gas system so you ended up with a single shot rifle.
Dimitri
CCI's Mil-Spec primers are what one needs with a M14/M1A or M1 rifle. Sure commercial primers do work the vast majority of the time, but if your reloading adding a extra layer of security is always good.
However it must be noted, when the M1 and M14/M1A series of rifles are made correctly, you'll have the ammunition's brass case distorting long before the gun itself gives. They were designed and tested to proof loads of 120,000 PSI, the nonsense you cannot reload to the pressures a bolt action is designed to handle (proofed to 70,000PSI general some to 80,000PSI) is a laugh. You have to worry more about the burn rate of the powder with a semi-automatic.
Powders burn at different rates, (no burn rate charts are useless in practice), you want a "X" amount of starting pressure which will propel the bullet down the barrel and you additionally want "Y" pressure range at the gas port to cycle the action to allow it to cycle properly. Go below that pressure required because the powder is all burnt out by the gas port and you wont cycle the rifle. Go above and except for the AR-15 sans Pistons of course (as all the additional pressure bleeds into the action the moment the bolt goes back allowing a higher range of port pressure without damage to the rifle) you will cause the pistol and any connectors/linkages to the bolt to cycle too fast possibly damaging by bending, shearing, or even ejecting the case before the pressure in the barrel drops.
Too slow of a burn rate so the powder is still burning with a high pressure at the rifles gas port on a M14/M1A or M1 rifle can cause the rifles bolt to go back too quickly and it ends up breaking the heel (where the serial number is) because of the slam back. Too fast of a burn rate and there isn't enough pressure at the gas port to cycle the gas system so you ended up with a single shot rifle.
Dimitri
norinco green box, non corrosive 7.62x51 is great ammo and one of my favorite "brands" to put through an m14. There is LOADS of it availlable to canada from china...... the current issue is not availlability , nor is it a problem with government import/export rules...... it is simply that due to the current global situation..... and believe it or not, high seas piracy..... importers are having a very tough time finding a shipping firm to acually bring that ammo across the ocean. It has become a high risk shipping commodity. I know of at least one order, bought and paid for, import approved..... but stuck in china cuz no one will ship it.
and.... this sounds like an out of battery detonation with the bolt lugs not fully engaged.
Due to the safety features which retain the firing pin through the bolt camming process, there are 3 immediate things to look at for causes :
1) hammer follow from a stock with inappropriate dimension between receiver heel and trigger group pads..... meaning the stock is not allowing the trigger group to sit in correlation to the receiver so as to give proper bolt/hammer operation. solution is to remove material 1 thou at a time from the trigger group bearing surfaces of the stock until proper lock up and function is observed repeatedly. ***** your m14/m1a of any type should be tested for hammer follow every time you take it out to use it. Frequently while hunting if using a wood stock as the stock can swell due to elements.... and any time the rifle has been disasembled or a new stock installed.
2) stuck firing pin from: a) culprit :cosmoline, means bolt not cleaned properly upon receipt of new rifle, or user has lubed thier bolt when they should be running it dry.... NO LUBE or grease in bolt! it's a dry system b) carbon fouling causing firing pin to stick forward, OR c) pierced primer and a brass shard from primer has entered firing pin hole and jammed the firing pin forward.
3) ammo with protruding primers or primers not seated deep enough on reloads.
and in my opinion, if your rifle is over the average of 7.62nato GO +9thou ..... i would not be using commercial ammo or reloaded commercial cases. These guns should be fed Nato 7.62 or reloads with Nato brass. Case head seperation is a gremlin waitng to smack you if you start using commercial ammo in a rifle with generous headspace.
I would also like to hear from what import year are the rifles in this thread from. Especially that blown off barrel...... recent import?? serial number?? (if you can p.m. me that)
and.... this sounds like an out of battery detonation with the bolt lugs not fully engaged.
Due to the safety features which retain the firing pin through the bolt camming process, there are 3 immediate things to look at for causes :
1) hammer follow from a stock with inappropriate dimension between receiver heel and trigger group pads..... meaning the stock is not allowing the trigger group to sit in correlation to the receiver so as to give proper bolt/hammer operation. solution is to remove material 1 thou at a time from the trigger group bearing surfaces of the stock until proper lock up and function is observed repeatedly. ***** your m14/m1a of any type should be tested for hammer follow every time you take it out to use it. Frequently while hunting if using a wood stock as the stock can swell due to elements.... and any time the rifle has been disasembled or a new stock installed.
2) stuck firing pin from: a) culprit :cosmoline, means bolt not cleaned properly upon receipt of new rifle, or user has lubed thier bolt when they should be running it dry.... NO LUBE or grease in bolt! it's a dry system b) carbon fouling causing firing pin to stick forward, OR c) pierced primer and a brass shard from primer has entered firing pin hole and jammed the firing pin forward.
3) ammo with protruding primers or primers not seated deep enough on reloads.
and in my opinion, if your rifle is over the average of 7.62nato GO +9thou ..... i would not be using commercial ammo or reloaded commercial cases. These guns should be fed Nato 7.62 or reloads with Nato brass. Case head seperation is a gremlin waitng to smack you if you start using commercial ammo in a rifle with generous headspace.
I would also like to hear from what import year are the rifles in this thread from. Especially that blown off barrel...... recent import?? serial number?? (if you can p.m. me that)
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I will take pictures and post them as soon as the rifle in question arrives including as assemebled and detail pictures of sub assy
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rajczak_kashka
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Surrey, B.C.
Norinco M14
Yeah, my brother inlaw has one and he isn`t pleased with his either. Almost every time he takes it out (range or bush) he has some sort of malfunction or the odd part comes loose or off. I asked him what did he expect for $500 when the real deal is at least 4 times that price. I told him to hang it on the wall as an ornament before one of us gets hurt or killed............? I would not buy Norinco anything!
Yeah, my brother inlaw has one and he isn`t pleased with his either. Almost every time he takes it out (range or bush) he has some sort of malfunction or the odd part comes loose or off. I asked him what did he expect for $500 when the real deal is at least 4 times that price. I told him to hang it on the wall as an ornament before one of us gets hurt or killed............? I would not buy Norinco anything!
I'm still hanging around and lurking. Many valid points brought up... and still I need more evidence. Investigations like this should be done by the shooter and not the rest of us with our 2 cents worth.... yet...
if i lived in surrey, or was anywhere near 45acpking, mystic or hungry or one of the other gurus i'd get my a$$ over to see him soo fast i'd leave the pavement afire= there is nothing wrong with these guns, generally, and very little wrong with the norinco line- price DOES NOT equate with quality- s SPRINGFIELD m1a can and does fire out of battery just as easily as a norinco- and the REAL THING( M14- NOT THE M1A) is a SAFE QUEEN in canada- i know - i've got 3 - a springer,an h&r, and a trw
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It doesn't matter, just like SAI rifles having a mere couple of traceable blow ups (ie picture evidence) after producing for 35 years (tens of?) thousands more then the Norinco's shipped to Canada and the US. Somehow means that all M1A's because the "casting process is flawed" are going to "blow up in your face" according to internet rumor.
I say keep shooting your Norinco M14S rifles, and if your really worried about it I'll mail anyone a 75$ check to cover the cost of proper packaging and shipping to get their rifle over to me. And since you wont need any and all accessories you bought for it you can throw them in the box before mailing the rifle to me.
Dimitri
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I put 860 rnds through mine last year. All 168 gr handloads. None using #34 primers. All FL sized.
I am sure there are some people on this board that will call that a month of shooting though.
I am just waiting on a part back from Mr ACPKing, and I will be out to put some more through it.
I am sure there are some people on this board that will call that a month of shooting though.
I am just waiting on a part back from Mr ACPKing, and I will be out to put some more through it.
Is that cosmoline at the bottom of the left lug recess of the receiver, at the top of the receiver at the left of pic?
Given the chip, and the extractor flying off, out of batter makes sense to me(other said it first, not me), but if there is cosmo there, I would question the cause of the out of battery. Where else is/was there cosmo? inside the bolt? Inside the chamber? in the receiver lock?
I just bought a second m305. The previous owner insists that he put about 200 rnds through it, and it is definitely fired. The part that concerned me(for him) was that there is still enough cosmo in the gas system for the piston to not move freely, and enough cosmo in the bolt for the pin to lock forward.
Sorry, but the original powder was not 4895. Military do not use canister grade powder.
It is a good powder for the gas gun. Whatever, a lot of you forget rule # 1 : use the lastest load data. Not because a reloader used 44 grains in the past that components are the same today - even the powder can be a bit different. The last manual are quite clear on the maximum to be used - but again some hard head will keep on going over limit until a mishap happen. Adjust your load and stay within limit. Battering your gun until it give up is not the way to go.
I think is is irresponsible to load and encourage other to load over limit.
On factory load...most of today load were not on the shelves and produced when the Garand and M14 were designed. Powder have evolved and better performance is possible on strong action, more than ever before. Using those load in the M14 will get you in trouble.
Also, 4895 happens to be one of the powders which the M1 & M14 gas systems were designed around. The pressure curve (burn & propagation rates ect> ie. big words I don't actually understand) is (near) perfect for these guns (again assuming a nominally 150g-@165g bullet).[/QUOTE]
It is a good powder for the gas gun. Whatever, a lot of you forget rule # 1 : use the lastest load data. Not because a reloader used 44 grains in the past that components are the same today - even the powder can be a bit different. The last manual are quite clear on the maximum to be used - but again some hard head will keep on going over limit until a mishap happen. Adjust your load and stay within limit. Battering your gun until it give up is not the way to go.
I think is is irresponsible to load and encourage other to load over limit.
On factory load...most of today load were not on the shelves and produced when the Garand and M14 were designed. Powder have evolved and better performance is possible on strong action, more than ever before. Using those load in the M14 will get you in trouble.
Also, 4895 happens to be one of the powders which the M1 & M14 gas systems were designed around. The pressure curve (burn & propagation rates ect> ie. big words I don't actually understand) is (near) perfect for these guns (again assuming a nominally 150g-@165g bullet).[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but the original powder was not 4895. Military do not use canister grade powder.
Many of you forget rule # 1 : use the lastest load data. Not because a reloader used 44 grains in the past that components are the same today - even the powder can be a bit different. The last manual are quite clear on the maximum to be used - but again some hxxd head will keep on going over limit until a mishap happen. Adjust your load and stay within limit. Battering your gun until it give up is not the way to go.
I think is is irresponsible to load and encourage other to load over limit.
On factory load...most of today load were not on the shelves and produced when the Garand and M14 were designed. Powder have evolved and better performance is possible on strong action, more than ever before. Using those load in the M14 will get you in trouble.
It will be nice now to have more details and facts..
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Hate to say it but the original 30-06Springfield loading the military was using was 4895. They then developed the 308Win using 30-06 brass and components when developing the M14 and the 7.62mm NATO round. So yes the M14 was designed around the original 4895 which both IMR and Hodgdon first sold as surplus military powder then commercially produced their own. (Edit: Note, I believe IMR may have been one of the original powder manufacturers however IMR today sells rebranded Canadian Expro Tech powders, while Hodgdon sells Australian ADI powders)
It was not till the M8X series of 7.62mm NATO rounds that the USA moved to the WC 846 powder as a replacement.
Dimitri
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punkrockboy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Eastern Bantario!
I was thinking the same thing. If there is cosmo their, what are the chances of cosmo in the firing pin channel??? I know it is a pain in the ass until you have done it a couple of times, but a thorough stripping of the bolt is required to properly clean the channel of cosmoline. Skipping this step can be a big no-no!
......All I can say is WOW!!!!
Reading this thread has made me look again in my reloading books....I was looking at *BOLT* gun data! Dogleg's misfortune has saved me from possibly a similar situation.
I was going to reload a bunch of Sierra 150gr SBTs using 44gr of Varget and Federal 210 primers....
Does the Sierra book cover service rifle reloads as well?
Now looking in Hornadys 7th edition at the *SERVICE RIFLE* section, it says to use no more than 41.8gr of Varget with a 155gr Amax with WLR primers.
You can damn well bet I'm going to more frikken vigilent about gas gun reloads.
Don't mean to hijack but Can I get feedback on the following?
I've had one concern in the back of my mind. And that was the very first box of ammo thru my M-14 was that Brazillian stuff with the "Reengastada" label on the box that was found to be wayyyy overloaded or loaded with pistol powder. Those 20 rounds absolutely kicked the hell out my shoulder. I'm concerned the breech/bolt/receiver may have been overstressed.
Thoughts?
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- Location
- victoria bc
just finished loading some 150gr fmj with 39 and 40gr of imr4895, ivi 762nato brass, cci 200 primers seated deep, i think i should be ok, whatya think
matt
matt
