OK - AR15 Guru's talk to me
- Thread starter Riflechair
- Start date
- Location
- Southern Ontario
Dumb Newbie Questions:
WELCOME TO THE AR15 ASYLUM!!!!!!!!!!
Here I is.
First, what exactly does "pre ban" refer to? Seems to be a big thing to some and mean nothing to others.
Secondly, what's a good startup? I am intent on name brand as usual and am looking at a colt AR15 A2 I believe it is. Good enough for me?
Thirdly, what the heck is DLASK? Never heard of them but seems that they are in the marketplace.
Last but not least... what's the ideal entry level name brand AR15 for one who does not presently but DOES intend to compete with it; alongside his 14 year old son, who will be the recipient of the first one in token of appreciation for being such a great kid... and maintaining marks and doing well with the Royal Canadian Air cadets..
Free Advice Freely Granted here.
WELCOME TO THE AR15 ASYLUM!!!!!!!!!!
Here I is.
First, what exactly does "pre ban" refer to? Seems to be a big thing to some and mean nothing to others.
Secondly, what's a good startup? I am intent on name brand as usual and am looking at a colt AR15 A2 I believe it is. Good enough for me?
Thirdly, what the heck is DLASK? Never heard of them but seems that they are in the marketplace.
Last but not least... what's the ideal entry level name brand AR15 for one who does not presently but DOES intend to compete with it; alongside his 14 year old son, who will be the recipient of the first one in token of appreciation for being such a great kid... and maintaining marks and doing well with the Royal Canadian Air cadets..
Free Advice Freely Granted here.
torontogunguy said:
Pre-ban AR-15s are an American creation. In 1994 the Clinton Administration passed the Brady Bill aka Assaulty Weapons Ban...it put restrictions on how many "bad" options an AR-15 could have. i.e., if you wnated detachable mags you couldn't have a bayonet stud, collapsible stock, etc.... The law didn't apply to ARs made prior to the AWB. As a result, rifles made Pre-Ban soon came to command premium prices on the used market. The Bush Administration allowed the AWB to sunset in 2004, thus making pre/post ban ARs a moot point.
All the top tier AR manufacturers are good. Colt, LMT, STAG, Armalite etc...are all good. There are several good, used Colt AR-15s for sale in the EE right now that would make for ideal competition rifles.
DLASK Arms is a Canadian company out in BC. They manufacture their own AR-15s called the DAR-701, shorty Remington 870 bbls and do custom pistol work.
Bare bones, entry level would be a Norinco 311, however, with the price of good used ARs in the EE, you can easily pick up a rifle in the $1100.00 range that will more than meet the needs of yourself/son until you gain enough experience to make informed decisions about what will work best for your shooting needs. If you're looking to buy new, I highly recommend STAG ARMS, give Walt a call at ARMS EAST, he's a contributing dealer to CGN & he has a banner here on the site.
Of the various manufactured AR's I've had the pleasure to work on, quality on them seems to be about the same as far as fit and finish. The exception of course being the Chinese 311. Although mine set up quite nicely that grey paint just doesn't make the rifle look very nice. I have a very old SGW that I've replaced the barrel on (After 15,000 rounds or so) and it is back to shooting one hole 5 shot groups at 100m. Trigger jobs are best left to someone very familier with the way that system works. I don't try to lighten the trigger as much as I make them a crisp let off, akin to breaking a glass rod. The front sight can be turned down to the "Legal" match limit but I find it easier and more cost effective to get the first issue Canadian sights when I can.
Installing the free float handguard is a great idea, but for some competions the rifle must have the same external appearence as the issue gun so the free float tubes without handguards mounted are out. The tube that replaces the barrel nut and the handguards mount onto is great, both free floating the barrel and removing the sling from the front sight and to that tube. If using the handguards withot any type of free float device the guards should be trimmed at the front so they are not tight on the handguard retainer behind the front sight. Tight handguards cause barrel slap that open up groups.
Sling tension is VERY important. If the sling is mounted to the barrel it is a must that you have to get the same tension with every shot. If it's mounted to the tube then not quite as important but it is still up there.
Although resting the mag on the ground is allowed, I do not recomend it as it creates a problem of uneven wear on the magazine and the bolt and causes shots to go flying when you least expect it. It also puts a preasure on the lower reciever that could cause some flyers. Removing the flash hider and crowning the barrel is one of the best ways to increase accuracy with the AR series as factory barrels are not always "Match Grade". As mentioned before a twist of 1 in 9 is about the best for the general shooter. Although the 1 in 7 is standard for military barrels, it is that fast to stabilize the tracer bullet, not the best for match shooting so we don't use them therefore you do not need the faster twist. Both 55 grn and the heavier 61.5 (SS109, C-77) bullet will be stabilized very well with the 1 in 9 twist with very little difference in actual impact point out to 300m.
Hope this helps, any questions?
Scott
Dycor
Installing the free float handguard is a great idea, but for some competions the rifle must have the same external appearence as the issue gun so the free float tubes without handguards mounted are out. The tube that replaces the barrel nut and the handguards mount onto is great, both free floating the barrel and removing the sling from the front sight and to that tube. If using the handguards withot any type of free float device the guards should be trimmed at the front so they are not tight on the handguard retainer behind the front sight. Tight handguards cause barrel slap that open up groups.
Sling tension is VERY important. If the sling is mounted to the barrel it is a must that you have to get the same tension with every shot. If it's mounted to the tube then not quite as important but it is still up there.
Although resting the mag on the ground is allowed, I do not recomend it as it creates a problem of uneven wear on the magazine and the bolt and causes shots to go flying when you least expect it. It also puts a preasure on the lower reciever that could cause some flyers. Removing the flash hider and crowning the barrel is one of the best ways to increase accuracy with the AR series as factory barrels are not always "Match Grade". As mentioned before a twist of 1 in 9 is about the best for the general shooter. Although the 1 in 7 is standard for military barrels, it is that fast to stabilize the tracer bullet, not the best for match shooting so we don't use them therefore you do not need the faster twist. Both 55 grn and the heavier 61.5 (SS109, C-77) bullet will be stabilized very well with the 1 in 9 twist with very little difference in actual impact point out to 300m.
Hope this helps, any questions?
Scott
Dycor
m39a2 said:
Please elaborate - is this based on engineering reports by Diemaco or some other research insititutes? do you have empirical data to back up the claim which you have isolated the cause of failure to resting of magazines on the ground?
Not trying to be an arse here - but I heard that many times and have yet to see it in person.
Rilfechair,
I'm glad to see I inspired a guy to get a new gun!If nothing else that's a good thing!Anyways there has been some good advice on here...but mostly a lot of advice that doesn't matter.And some advice from people who don't have a clue what they are talking about.Let me list the things you need to win at the BCRA or NSCC or any other match.
1.You need either a 16 or 20 inch Hbar AR preferably with a flat top.Stick with the proven winners.Armalite,Bushy,Colt,DPMS,Stag etc.
2.You need some optics.Not more than 4x.Elcan,Acog etc.Ease of operation is a good thing.Counting clicks can be a pain when you are thinking about other stuff.
3.Practice.Get out and shoot from the various positions.I hardly ever shoot my AR's from prone when at the range.Sitting,kneeling and standing is where the match is won or lost.I will get outshot by the race guns from prone.I don't care because I know when it comes to positional shooting and fire and movement,my #### is wired tight.
Now let me list the things you DON'T need for Service Rifle.
1.Freefloated barrel
2.Extra heavy bull type barrels.
3.Slings
4.Match triggers or even a really well tuned trigger.
5.Any optic above 4x.
6.Bipod
7.Shooting jacket
8.Shooting glove.
9.Fancy muzzle breaks.
10.Match cut crown.
I don't shoot with any of this stuff.The majority of the times I've won the BCRA SR Championships has been with a rack grade,taken on exercise,used by basic training courses C7.I used the Green Bastard last year because I didn't have time to get zeros with my issue gun.It doesn't have anything funky done to it either.Its a standard Armalite 20inch HBar.
I guess what I'm really trying to say is get a rifle and go shoot it.Don't waste your money on anything extra.Save the cash and use it on ammo for practice.
By the way I was talking with your dad on FLYBC yesterday.Glad to see some fishermen like guns too.
I'm glad to see I inspired a guy to get a new gun!If nothing else that's a good thing!Anyways there has been some good advice on here...but mostly a lot of advice that doesn't matter.And some advice from people who don't have a clue what they are talking about.Let me list the things you need to win at the BCRA or NSCC or any other match.
1.You need either a 16 or 20 inch Hbar AR preferably with a flat top.Stick with the proven winners.Armalite,Bushy,Colt,DPMS,Stag etc.
2.You need some optics.Not more than 4x.Elcan,Acog etc.Ease of operation is a good thing.Counting clicks can be a pain when you are thinking about other stuff.
3.Practice.Get out and shoot from the various positions.I hardly ever shoot my AR's from prone when at the range.Sitting,kneeling and standing is where the match is won or lost.I will get outshot by the race guns from prone.I don't care because I know when it comes to positional shooting and fire and movement,my #### is wired tight.
Now let me list the things you DON'T need for Service Rifle.
1.Freefloated barrel
2.Extra heavy bull type barrels.
3.Slings
4.Match triggers or even a really well tuned trigger.
5.Any optic above 4x.
6.Bipod
7.Shooting jacket
8.Shooting glove.
9.Fancy muzzle breaks.
10.Match cut crown.
I don't shoot with any of this stuff.The majority of the times I've won the BCRA SR Championships has been with a rack grade,taken on exercise,used by basic training courses C7.I used the Green Bastard last year because I didn't have time to get zeros with my issue gun.It doesn't have anything funky done to it either.Its a standard Armalite 20inch HBar.
I guess what I'm really trying to say is get a rifle and go shoot it.Don't waste your money on anything extra.Save the cash and use it on ammo for practice.
By the way I was talking with your dad on FLYBC yesterday.Glad to see some fishermen like guns too.
"That's funny, everyone in CF and civies do this at SR matches without ever having had problems. I've done this since I started competing with my AR in the mid 80's and have never had any problems either"
Yet! The additional wear might not be noticed at first but it will tend to cause fliers eventually. And, of all the things I said this is what you chose to question me about?
I must add 2 cents to "Longshot's" statements, wanna learn to shoot...then shoot. Wanna shoot better, shoot more!!
Scott
Yet! The additional wear might not be noticed at first but it will tend to cause fliers eventually. And, of all the things I said this is what you chose to question me about?
I must add 2 cents to "Longshot's" statements, wanna learn to shoot...then shoot. Wanna shoot better, shoot more!!
Scott
m39a2 said:
Are you refering to NRA High Power & U.S. Service Rifle? If not, which competitions in Canada have this rule?Could you explain this further? How is it possible to keep the sling tension on a barrel consistant, shot to shot?m39a2 said:
If the sling is mounted to a floated tube and not the barrel, then what effect would sling tension have on the barrel?
m39a2 said:
Could you expand on this? where does this wear happen? Mags? Bolt?
I also don't understand how it could cause flyers?
m39a2 said:
I have three 1:7 twist barrels that shoot exceptionally well and currently use a 1:8 for matches. They handle 55 grain fmj up to and including heavier/longer bullets like the 80 grain SMK. If they handle a wider variety of bullet weights/length/types, why not get a faster twist barrel?
I can only echo Ryans comments.
Predominately the top Service Rifle Shooters in the country where CF members using C7A1 rifles.
I've won the 300m and 500m deliberate with a 16" and 14.5" barreled carbine (respectively on different years) using a TA31 and TA01NSN ACOG (respectively).
To shoot Cdn Service Rifle - all you need is a service type rifle.
Since in Canada you can monopod your rifle usign the mag - do it -- it gives and additional point of contact - and common sense shows us that that will make your position more stable.
I will agree with Scott that pressure on the bolt carrier can alter the way the bolt locks up -- but the changes are miniscule compared to the benifits.
You cannot rest the mag in the US (either HighPower or LEG matches for DR) [and as some here can attest - they get really pissy at Kevin when they catch him - I was using a M4A1 at 600m what the hell did they want - still got DR ]
Service Rifle is not benchrest -- its a mix of things --- I dont think it is as relative to cbt shooting as it could be -- but it does a decent job of teaching an intro to shooting - as people learn mirage, wind and external ballistics -- its a good building block for future sniper candidates.
1:7 pretty much the only barrel I use these days -- it has been proven that they are just as accurate with 55gr as a 1:9 -- and you can use the 75/77gr gr bullets as well -- which anyone who has shot 400,500 with 55gr can attest that the heavier rounds are much better at that distance.
I've shot Service Rifle from back when I was issued a FN C1A1, I've shot it with 14.5, 16", 18", 20" and even a suppressed rifle.
Ryan is a better shooter than I.
Predominately the top Service Rifle Shooters in the country where CF members using C7A1 rifles.
I've won the 300m and 500m deliberate with a 16" and 14.5" barreled carbine (respectively on different years) using a TA31 and TA01NSN ACOG (respectively).
To shoot Cdn Service Rifle - all you need is a service type rifle.
Since in Canada you can monopod your rifle usign the mag - do it -- it gives and additional point of contact - and common sense shows us that that will make your position more stable.
I will agree with Scott that pressure on the bolt carrier can alter the way the bolt locks up -- but the changes are miniscule compared to the benifits.
You cannot rest the mag in the US (either HighPower or LEG matches for DR) [and as some here can attest - they get really pissy at Kevin when they catch him
- I was using a M4A1 at 600m what the hell did they want - still got DR ] Service Rifle is not benchrest -- its a mix of things --- I dont think it is as relative to cbt shooting as it could be -- but it does a decent job of teaching an intro to shooting - as people learn mirage, wind and external ballistics -- its a good building block for future sniper candidates.
1:7 pretty much the only barrel I use these days -- it has been proven that they are just as accurate with 55gr as a 1:9 -- and you can use the 75/77gr gr bullets as well -- which anyone who has shot 400,500 with 55gr can attest that the heavier rounds are much better at that distance.
I've shot Service Rifle from back when I was issued a FN C1A1, I've shot it with 14.5, 16", 18", 20" and even a suppressed rifle.
Ryan is a better shooter than I.
Yes, same external as he service rifle refers to NRA matches. Not everybody here only shoots in Canada. Sling tension is correct when your hand goes numb! Thats an old story but it does hold true for many shooters. It is very easy to bend a barrel, even a heavy match barrel but as always consistancy is the secret. As the sling does not touch the barrel with a free float tube the tension of that sling is of little importance to the barrel. It does play a great deal into consistant shot placement however.
Resting the mag on the ground causes wear on the mag catch, the catch is designed to hold the mag in not out. If you wear it enough the bolt will jam on the back of the lips of the mag as it is inserted too far into the mag well.
The mag lips themselves are not designed to have the bolt ride on them but over them. If the mag is in contact with the travelling bolt then you will wear the mag lips off to the point where they will not properly present the round to the chamber for feeding.
As the mag pushes up on the bolt, it causes wear to the inside of the reciever and inconsistant bolt thrust to the chamber that equals inconsistant chambering and fliers!
Cause I'm cheap and 55 grain bullets are cheaper! I also have 1 in 7, 1 in 8 1/2, 1 in 9 and 1 in 12 inch barrels. 1 bullet does it all for me. I use the heavier bullets for better accuracy out to further ranges, 500 or 600m but the lighter for up to 500m. Any more questions?
Scott
Resting the mag on the ground causes wear on the mag catch, the catch is designed to hold the mag in not out. If you wear it enough the bolt will jam on the back of the lips of the mag as it is inserted too far into the mag well.
The mag lips themselves are not designed to have the bolt ride on them but over them. If the mag is in contact with the travelling bolt then you will wear the mag lips off to the point where they will not properly present the round to the chamber for feeding.
As the mag pushes up on the bolt, it causes wear to the inside of the reciever and inconsistant bolt thrust to the chamber that equals inconsistant chambering and fliers!
Cause I'm cheap and 55 grain bullets are cheaper! I also have 1 in 7, 1 in 8 1/2, 1 in 9 and 1 in 12 inch barrels. 1 bullet does it all for me. I use the heavier bullets for better accuracy out to further ranges, 500 or 600m but the lighter for up to 500m. Any more questions?
Scott
You do know that the mag catch keeps the mag from going in either direction right? Anyway rest it on the mag.... it works, go to a service shoot and see it work
BTW... do what longshot says, he knows what he is talking about. My only difference with him is that I like to use a sling and hence I like to free float my barrel so that I don't mess with the POI. However, having said that I've shot my first two shoots this year with my C7 flat top clone that has a Goverment profile barrel and no freefloat (I don't sling up with this upper) and I did quite well but I need practice to shoot without the sling. If you don't need a sling don't bother with the freefloat.
BTW... do what longshot says, he knows what he is talking about. My only difference with him is that I like to use a sling and hence I like to free float my barrel so that I don't mess with the POI. However, having said that I've shot my first two shoots this year with my C7 flat top clone that has a Goverment profile barrel and no freefloat (I don't sling up with this upper) and I did quite well but I need practice to shoot without the sling. If you don't need a sling don't bother with the freefloat.
Scott - the mag catch is hardened steel (most mags alum) While you could eventually damage a mag -- mags will be far gone from service from field use and heat distortions.
By pressing on the mag you will limit out on the mag catch opening.
I took some pics of my rifle to explain this.
Without the upper on the rifle - dimensional play allows for some slop on the mag - magwell fit
As can see in the two pics the mag can rotate a bit (2-3mm from the upper and lower limits on the front of the mag)
With the upper on the bolt actually stabilizes the mag.
The channel on the bolt carrier allows the rounds to pressure the bottom of the bolt carrier - but the mag feedlips do not really touch the bolt carrier (the bolt can drag across them though)
I shoot in the US - I've taken classes with the USMC Rifle Team and had there then NCOIC CW4 (Master Gunner) Gene Rucks admit that resting the mag did give a more stable platform - and the main reason it was forbiden is the Springfield - M1, M14 crowd could not do it.
As well Dave Liwanag then CO of the US AMU has admitted the same.
I've been shooting a C7 for near twenty years and owned a AR for 18. I am a Colt armourer - and a gun nerd of the nth degree -- while I understand your comments -- they really dont apply to the Cdn service rifle shooter.
I rest my mag on a vehicle if I have to shoot someone here -- my life depends on my gun -- and I dont have any problems with resting my mag.
Secondly mags are an expendable issue as I mentioned before.
I shoot M856 tracer and Mk262 77gr ammo pretty much exclusively due to desire terminal performance.
By pressing on the mag you will limit out on the mag catch opening.
I took some pics of my rifle to explain this.
Without the upper on the rifle - dimensional play allows for some slop on the mag - magwell fit
As can see in the two pics the mag can rotate a bit (2-3mm from the upper and lower limits on the front of the mag)
With the upper on the bolt actually stabilizes the mag.
The channel on the bolt carrier allows the rounds to pressure the bottom of the bolt carrier - but the mag feedlips do not really touch the bolt carrier (the bolt can drag across them though)
I shoot in the US - I've taken classes with the USMC Rifle Team and had there then NCOIC CW4 (Master Gunner) Gene Rucks admit that resting the mag did give a more stable platform - and the main reason it was forbiden is the Springfield - M1, M14 crowd could not do it.
As well Dave Liwanag then CO of the US AMU has admitted the same.
I've been shooting a C7 for near twenty years and owned a AR for 18. I am a Colt armourer - and a gun nerd of the nth degree -- while I understand your comments -- they really dont apply to the Cdn service rifle shooter.
I rest my mag on a vehicle if I have to shoot someone here -- my life depends on my gun -- and I dont have any problems with resting my mag.
Secondly mags are an expendable issue as I mentioned before.
I shoot M856 tracer and Mk262 77gr ammo pretty much exclusively due to desire terminal performance.
Ah, yes, mags are expendable when the Queen is paying for them. I'm still cheep and hate buying stuff that I should have not wrecked.
It appears that you and I have about the same experience with AR's. I don't think I'm going to start monopodding my mag any time soon though, I only have 20 roundes anyway, but if you can't wreck one in the ammount of time you have been shooting one perhaps I ned to chenge my opinion.
Scott
It appears that you and I have about the same experience with AR's. I don't think I'm going to start monopodding my mag any time soon though, I only have 20 roundes anyway, but if you can't wreck one in the ammount of time you have been shooting one perhaps I ned to chenge my opinion.
Scott
Or Uncle Sam paying
I dont think I would have ever mono'd with a Thermold (shudder)
I know a lot of guys using the 20's since they cant monpod --
Also I know shooters that just cant get the rifle into a decent pocket/position from a monopod'd position.
"shooting" slings are an impossibility for the way I shoot at work - so I dont train that way at home either -- so keep in mind the shooting sling may work better for the way you shoot.
Cheers
Kev
I dont think I would have ever mono'd with a Thermold (shudder)
I know a lot of guys using the 20's since they cant monpod --
Also I know shooters that just cant get the rifle into a decent pocket/position from a monopod'd position.
"shooting" slings are an impossibility for the way I shoot at work - so I dont train that way at home either -- so keep in mind the shooting sling may work better for the way you shoot.
Cheers
Kev
