PDW builds - Lets see them, and share results
- Thread starter AbHobbyist
- Start date
F22_RaptoR
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Edmonton, Alberta
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
Wikipedia said:
Does anyones "PDW" fire a proprietary armor piercing rifle round?
winnipegger
CGN frequent flyer
buy many pdw's marketed as pdw's fire pistol rounds...
If you believe that a PDW should defeat body armour, then pistol rounds don't cover it. They would be classified as SMGs.
If you think that a PDW is a Personal Defense Weapon, then any rifle or knife would be one.
winnipegger
CGN frequent flyer
Modern personal defense weapons
ČZW-438 – 4.38x30mm Libra
Colt MARS – 5.56x30mm MARS
FN P90 – 5.7x28mm
Heckler & Koch MP7 – 4.6x30mm
Knight's Armament Company PDW – 6x35mm KAC
Magpul PDR – 5.56x45mm NATO
PP-2000 – 9x19mm 7N21 +P+, 9x19mm 7N31 +P+
QCW-05 – 5.8x21mm
Saab Bofors Dynamics CBJ-MS – 6.5x25 CBJ-MS
ST Kinetics CPW – 4.6x30mm, 5.7x28mm, 9x19mm[5]
VBR-Belgium PDW – 7.92x24mm
Modern Sub Machine Carbine – 5.56x30mm MINSAS
and arguably the p90 (ss190 being illegal here) and mp7 fire pistol rounds... where do you draw the line between pistol and rifle rounds??
I am by no means an authority just trying to figure out where this imaginary line is drawn
ČZW-438 – 4.38x30mm Libra
Colt MARS – 5.56x30mm MARS
FN P90 – 5.7x28mm
Heckler & Koch MP7 – 4.6x30mm
Knight's Armament Company PDW – 6x35mm KAC
Magpul PDR – 5.56x45mm NATO
PP-2000 – 9x19mm 7N21 +P+, 9x19mm 7N31 +P+
QCW-05 – 5.8x21mm
Saab Bofors Dynamics CBJ-MS – 6.5x25 CBJ-MS
ST Kinetics CPW – 4.6x30mm, 5.7x28mm, 9x19mm[5]
VBR-Belgium PDW – 7.92x24mm
Modern Sub Machine Carbine – 5.56x30mm MINSAS
and arguably the p90 (ss190 being illegal here) and mp7 fire pistol rounds... where do you draw the line between pistol and rifle rounds??
I am by no means an authority just trying to figure out where this imaginary line is drawn
The P90 was created before the Five seveN (although a pistol was being considered at the same time). The Five seveN is a pistol that was created to use the PDW round, not the other way around. The 5.7x28 round is no more a pistol round than the 5.56 (since there are AR pistols).
I don't know who the authority is on PDW and whether there is a clear cut definition. Personally, I believe a PDW is a SMG that defeats body armour (but not using a traditional rifle round). That's not exactly a iron clad definiton either.
winnipegger
CGN frequent flyer
that seems like a reasonable definition but also there are guns like the parker hale PDW that fire solely 9mm...
Also when does a carbine ar become a PDW ar? arbitrarily at 8-9" of barrel length while everything else on the gun remains the same?
Sorry for the derail, back to regular programming. Suputin do you have any new SPEX stock #### that we haven't seen yet?
If you believe the WIKI definition, a PDW fires an intermediate round as opposed to a rifle round. Therefore, some would argue that since the AR fires a rifle round, it is not a PDW.
Because there isn't a universally accepted definition, it allows any company to make a small gun and call it a PDW. It's marketing aimed at capitalizing on the PDW craze.
What came first, the term PDW or a gun that shoots intermediate ammo? Either way, I love my semi P90. Keep the pics coming.
I'm not sure I would call myself an "authority" on PDW's either, but I do know a fair bit about them. The first time I'd ever come across the term, was a simple booklet printed up by FN and handed out to a Weapons Tech in 1988-1989. He had also been "loaned" the first "Para-Minimi"/C9 kit, which I thought was very cool! Anyway, he had a spare booklet for the P90 and since I was very interested, he introduced me to the FN rep the next day, and he gave me a copy of that brochure, and the complete marketing package for all FN Herstal military products for that year. He also gave me a keychain that had a Browning HiPower too.
Anyway, the P90 booklet had drawings, no pictures. It appeared to me that this was at the EARLY prototype stage, maybe even just a concept. The document had to explain this new idea of a PDW: that most army soldiers are not infantry, and as such they won't be doing much deliberate attacks/assaults, but rather defensive response shooting. Defensive military shooting means basically two types: your heavy crew served weapons, like the GPMG and larger weapons like the M2 .50, or “individual weapon” like a rifle, carbine, handgun or SMG.
So for an individual defensive weapon for counter-ambush, this meant speed of engagement (a sort of red dot sight), high rate of fire (900 rpm), and a large volume of bullets (50 rd mags) to engage multiple enemies when you are ambushed. Being a military weapon designed during a time when the Soviet assault forces would likely be issued crude body-armor, the “new SMG” had to defeat that. It had to have low recoil so that a 7 round burst in half a second, doesn't pull you away from the enemy soldier/target, even with soldiers not experienced in full auto individual weapons (takes more experience than you might think, usually). Because this was an individual weapon to protect against unexpected ambushes, it needed to be easy to carry, slung, while driving a truck, jeep, motorcyle...employable from INSIDE the vehicle, one handed full auto (9mm SMG's are almost all very poor for that). This meant short, light, no extended mags poking out the bottom, comfortable to carry 24/7 for months on end. Carried more than shot.
The weight issue meant that not only would the thing need plastic stocks, but poly mags, and a very light cartridge. Light cartridge means a very small light bullet. A light bullet to go through body armor, needs lots of velocity. For a very light bullet to have stopping power, it needs to tumble or upset somehow, or it's just making .22 holes. So they tweeked the concepts from the SS-109 bullet design, and adapted it to the new smaller bullet/cartridge. It's NOT the same layout between the SS-190 and SS-109, but many of the same ideas are carried over. Tumbling and penetration are key to performance.
SMG's generally don't apply as PDW's, either because an AP round doesn't have the required performance, or is incapable of engaging at 100m (most SMG's operate from an open bolt, which ruins accuracy when handheld, unlike say a 30 lb GPMG on it's bipod). Also, many SMG designs don't have all that great a recoil absorbing when you are talking about full auto bursts, some are substantially better than others.
Since then, PDW has become a real thing. But at least one of the advanced characteristics of FN's original design are usually missing in the competition's offerings, SMG based variants, and cut down assault rifles. The most commonly missed aspect is high capacity magazines, most are 20 rounds less than the P90. Another is the ultra-low recoil of FN's cartridge, apparently about half that of a 9mm, far less than a 5.56. Some of you mentioned the use of 9mm in some PDW's, that's true, but all of these designs incorporated new 9mm AP rounds, that supposedly match the threat. But the core concept survives: small system, fast to engage, defeat body armour. So realistically, your ultra-short AR-15's could be considered PDW's, even if they don't offer every single thing the original FN concept provided. But they DO offer something FN's doesn't: a widely available common cartridge available anywhere in the world to military, police and civilians.
One of the "funnest" rifles I've fired was a M-16 with a DPMS Kitty-Kat 7" barreled upper and a Beta-C drum mag. It was pure "win" to say the least. Aside from the mag being as wide as Fat Albert's ass, it's the closest thing I've shot to a PDW.
I wouldn't get too hung up over it really. A 11.5" barrelled gun is quite maneuverable under most circumstances. Sure, the shorter the better - if you truly want to be fashionable about it...
I've got a 11.5" Bushmaster and I've never felt there was much need to go less than that. If NEA builds a .300 Blackout PDW at some point, I might buy one of those on a whim out of pure curiosity to see what all the rage is about.
wow, really nice.
would you be kind enough to tell me where i can get a set of front and rear sight of yours.
Does a 10.5" count as a PDW? I built it out of papier-mâché and cynicism.
would you be kind enough to tell me where i can get a set of front and rear sight of yours.
They're made by Daniel Defense and I got them from One Shot Tactical.
