Picture of the day

[woodchopper]

right

so I don't have to clean this up for a third time

Back to pictures and not who had teh worst POW camps and treatment.

 

[Ganderite]

I find the discussions prompted by the pictures to be very interesting and valuable.

 

[scott585]

I find the discussions prompted by the pictures to be very interesting and valuable.

i agree, the knowledge thoughts and opinions are a major part of this hobby

 

[Recce21]

Academic discussions surrounding POWs and historical photos is one thing

Saying that children "got what was coming to them" is quite another.

I am all for discussing prisoner treatment in relations to a photo we are discussing, my beef is the 70+ year old hate and slander of an entire nation or saying that wholesale murder of surrendering prisoners was somehow justified or celebrating the murder of an aging vet who already served his prison time. That's immoral vigilantism that makes us as historians and gun enthusiasts appear infantile.

I find the discussions prompted by the pictures to be very interesting and valuable.

i agree, the knowledge thoughts and opinions are a major part of this hobby

 

[purple]

I just got back from a 3 week trip to France and southern Belgium where I visited or re-visited a lot of the battlefields, war cemeteries, monuments and museums of WW1 and WW2 in Normandy, Ypres, the Somme and the Marne. Maybe it's a function of age and a tendency to focus more on the human dimension of war, but I found myself spending more time at the cemeteries and monuments this time around than I did at the museums.

Military technology and equipment changes a lot over time, terrain less so, and human nature the least. Most of the old battlefields have been reclaimed, overgrown or otherwise changed over the last 70-100 years, but the war cemeteries remain as the most poignant legacies of both wars. The enormous WW1 cemeteries that you see in the Somme, Ypres and Verdun areas are very compelling, especially in the area of Ypres where there are so many of them crammed into such a small geographical area. For the past 100 years the French and Belgians have lived and worked in what has to be the world's largest graveyard. I would not want to live there.

The monuments are by and large brooding, sorrowful and somewhat foreboding with a greater sense of spirituality seen at the French ones. The Vimy memorial is an exception as it does touch on all of these, but also conveys a message of inspiration and hope for a better world.

 

[grelmar]

Spent 2&1/2 years working with homeless people....

I saw acts of kindness that only hit home if you knew just how desperate a situation some of these people were in - like a fellow giving his buddy a KFC chicken leg he'd managed to panahandle off someone, because his buddy was even hungrier than him.

Also spent a lovely hour at the city morgue on a Christmas Eve identifying a 19 year old homeless kid who had his head caved in by a rock and dumped into the river, for a half flask of cheap whiskey and a CD player.

Put people into desperate situations, and you find out who they really are. It has nothing to do with race, religion, or nationality.

On a lighter note... I'm sure this will buff right out:

http://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/images-hetzer-pulled-gulf-gdansk-2007.html/2

 

[purple]

Academic discussions surrounding POWs and historical photos is one thing

Saying that children "got what was coming to them" is quite another.

I am all for discussing prisoner treatment in relations to a photo we are discussing, my beef is the 70+ year old hate and slander of an entire nation or saying that wholesale murder of surrendering prisoners was somehow justified or celebrating the murder of an aging vet who already served his prison time. That's immoral vigilantism that makes us as historians and gun enthusiasts appear infantile.

By and large you will not find too much empathy or admiration here for the fortunes of German troops in WW2. The Nazi regime was the aggressors and caused a lot of suffering and loss before being bludgeoned into submission on the battlefield. German troops were the instruments of this aggression and to a varying degree were complicit in it.

The Germans were a tough adversary on the battlefield and exhibited a high level of tactical skill and in many cases, superior weaponry. They earned the grudging respect of the allied armies for this. Germany has been rehabilitated over the past 70 years to a point where previous notions of militarism and aggression are a spent force and the country plays a constructive role in the world. I do not detect any widespread hatred for the Germans for their actions in the past wars, nor do I see too much admiration or glorification of this sad chapter in German and world history. Some individuals will no doubt persist in their admiration or condemnation of German militarism, but both of these ideas are passé in today's world.

 

[Sharps '63]

The Franco Prussian War, WWI, WWII - these exemplify the war like nature of the German people. Patton recognized this as well and wanted to rearm the Wehrmacht to invade Russia while the US still had an army in Europe. Churchill said - "The Hun is either at your feet or at your throat." Why do Frenchmen get nervous when they see three or more Germans in conversation? They think they're plotting the next invasion .... :>)

I met many Germans during my four year tour in Nord Rhein Westphalen. Not one was in any way apologetic for the war, most proud of their war record. It was a badge of honour to flash the party pin worn by a relative. I was disgusted by this behaviour.

Nationalism has always been a cause for war, along with the usual geo-political reasons. "War is the continuation of state policy by other means." Von Clausewitz

 

[AP]

The Franco Prussian War, WWI, WWII - these exemplify the war like nature of the German people. Patton recognized this as well and wanted to rearm the Wehrmacht to invade Russia while the US still had an army in Europe. Churchill said - "The Hun is either at your feet or at your throat." Why do Frenchmen get nervous when they see three or more Germans in conversation? They think they're plotting the next invasion .... :>)

I met many Germans during my four year tour in Nord Rhein Westphalen. Not one was in any way apologetic for the war, most proud of their war record. It was a badge of honour to flash the party pin worn by a relative. I was disgusted by this behaviour.

Nationalism has always been a cause for war, along with the usual geo-political reasons. "War is the continuation of state policy by other means." Von Clausewitz

we lived in Soest (Westphalia) when my father was stationed at Fort York - he was OC HQ Coy and oversaw civilian contracts among many other duties. Meyer was apparently living in Hagen and is reported to have started visiting the officers mess at Fort York quite regularly then. My father never spoke of any of this however he had been on Vokes staff as part of CAOF (as many prewar regular army were required to do - including Vokes!) and I am confident he was well aware of Meyer's case. In fact I have an immediate post war photo of my father meeting with Count Von Galen, Bishop of Muenster. FWIW Von Galen was quite outspoken about the Nazis and towards the end the Nazis threw him in a concentration camp - post war Von Galen was also outspoken about the various concerns he had with Canadian Occupational Forces. He died soon after the war as a result of illness exacerbated by his time in a concentration camp having just been elevated to Cardinal - his biography is worth reading to understand that there were also many very vocal German opponents of the Nazis and their policies. Apparently Von Galen had a role to play in Meyer's sentence being commuted as well.

... I remember traveling to just about every town and city in Westphalia - regular trips to the Mohnesee .. I particularly liked Winterberg and also the elevated train in Wuppertal. Dusseldorf was still rubble in many parts of the city as far as you could see. As far as apologetic -- it was all pretty neutral at that time and .. but my mothers best friend (also British but married to a British REME officer) had been in Germany with BAOR much earlier and was not very pleased at being spat apon by German women while she shopped.

 

[Sharps '63]

AP - very interesting history! I was stationed at Brigade HQ Fort Henry, about 5 kms from the Mohne Dam. Fort York was three kms away.

I'm sure that the immediate post-was attitude towards foreign (occupation) troops was different from that I experienced. The generation of young people while I was there was very much into Bob Dylan, The Beatles, etc., all played on the off-shore pirate radio stations and Radio Luxemburg. They were the epitome of "peaceniks", knew nothing about WWII and couldn't have cared less about the Viet Nam War. There was a disconnect between them and their parents generation.

 

[AP]

AP - very interesting history! I was stationed at Brigade HQ Fort Henry, about 5 kms from the Mohne Dam. Fort York was three kms away.

I'm sure that the immediate post-was attitude towards foreign (occupation) troops was different from that I experienced. The generation of young people while I was there was very much into Bob Dylan, The Beatles, etc., all played on the off-shore pirate radio stations and Radio Luxemburg. They were the epitome of "peaceniks", knew nothing about WWII and couldn't have cared less about the Viet Nam War. There was a disconnect between them and their parents generation.

Yes ..I recall the period of mid '50's so only about a decade after the war. I can tell you at that time there was no love lost between the Belgique troops stationed in Soest and the German civilians. Canadian troops on the other hand were fraternizing rather well and my father denied several soldiers requests to marry local girls. My father informed my mother that he simply used reason with the love smitten soldier and asked him to consider if he wanted to live like my father did as a married man: apparently that was usually enough to frighten them out of their plans. As I found out much later he behaved more like a father to the men ... and having been CFR'd from a PSM in 1940 ...I guess he could relate fairly well to their challenges. I recall witnessing from a distance in Winterberg a company plus parade that he ordered to accommodate a local investigation into an assault. The inspecting party was a German Polizei, a young woman and an older male. I believe they completed their review convinced that the person they were looking for was probably a British soldier and they left. I watched that from a respectable distance as my father had told me I was not to be there. It was a very interesting event - but very "old school". Despite the very modern (at the time) "Red Patch Club" the most popular place in town for the soldiers was the little slightly rundown cafe run by the Salvation Army. Everyone went there for tea/coffee sandwiches. FWIW .. as a family we always felt far more welcome wherever we went in Germany than we did in France... in fact when traveling to England my father took great pains to avoid driving in France. I dont think his experience getting out of Brest in 1940 left him with a particularly warm spot for France.

Just remembered - one of the things I dearly wanted to have was a German helmet .. these were available as the real deal and had interesting decals etc. I believe these were about 50marks (about 10 bucks - not cheap for the day but still) .. anyway when I told my father he became apoplectic and called me an idiot etc etc he said that they had used helmets like these to create road beds in various locations by throwing them down and running over them with tanks.....

 

[tokguy]

Perhaps?

I'd put money on it that some were shot after surrendering.

Academic discussions surrounding POWs and historical photos is one thing

Saying that children "got what was coming to them" is quite another.

I am all for discussing prisoner treatment in relations to a photo we are discussing, my beef is the 70+ year old hate and slander of an entire nation or saying that wholesale murder of surrendering prisoners was somehow justified or celebrating the murder of an aging vet who already served his prison time. That's immoral vigilantism that makes us as historians and gun enthusiasts appear infantile.

I'd agree with you there. Most learned people assume that horrible things were done, by all sides in the conflict. There are enough documented instances, we don't need to press the point and sully the memory and reputation of of veterans by stating " Canada's forces were also implicit in these sort of things"
It's supposition at best, let it lie...nothing is gained by it.

 

[Dark Alley Dan]

Child soldiers were not a uniquely Hitlerjugend phenomenon:

Here we see the surrender of General Skeletor to some Soviet kid. Seriously, who is the poor stunned bugger at right? Anybody know?

One even younger:

Perhaps younger yet:

Were these kids actually combatants, or are these pics just evidence of someone goofin' around? The last one smacks of "Here, kid. Hold this. Look fierce. Smile, already!"

 

[Sharps '63]

Yes ..I recall the period of mid '50's so only about a decade after the war. I can tell you at that time there was no love lost between the Belgique troops stationed in Soest and the German civilians. Canadian troops on the other hand were fraternizing rather well and my father denied several soldiers requests to marry local girls. My father informed my mother that he simply used reason with the love smitten soldier and asked him to consider if he wanted to live like my father did as a married man: apparently that was usually enough to frighten them out of their plans. As I found out much later he behaved more like a father to the men ... and having been CFR'd from a PSM in 1940 ...I guess he could relate fairly well to their challenges. I recall witnessing from a distance in Winterberg a company plus parade that he ordered to accommodate a local investigation into an assault. The inspecting party was a German Polizei, a young woman and an older male. I believe they completed their review convinced that the person they were looking for was probably a British soldier and they left. I watched that from a respectable distance as my father had told me I was not to be there. It was a very interesting event - but very "old school". Despite the very modern (at the time) "Red Patch Club" the most popular place in town for the soldiers was the little slightly rundown cafe run by the Salvation Army. Everyone went there for tea/coffee sandwiches. FWIW .. as a family we always felt far more welcome wherever we went in Germany than we did in France... in fact when traveling to England my father took great pains to avoid driving in France. I dont think his experience getting out of Brest in 1940 left him with a particularly warm spot for France.

I remember the friction between the Belgians and the Germans, and also that between the Flemish and Walloon Belgians!

Sounds like your father was a good Officer to his men. I married a German girl and it was a disaster, like so many other such marriages. The Army actively discouraged it and if they found she had any criminal history or family members in Leipzig (DDR) who were associated with the East German Communist Party, permission would have been denied.
Regretfully, they could not document any such history.

The Brigade Commander at one time imposed a '0' tolerance stance against brawls between Canucks and German nationals - regardless of provocation. We were told that we were ambassadors for both the Army and Canada. That worked for a while as we victimized Holland where a Canadian soldier could do almost no wrong.

 

[AP]

I married a German girl and it was a disaster, like so many other such marriages. The Army actively discouraged it and if they found she had any criminal history or family members in Leipzig (DDR) who were associated with the East German Communist Party, permission would have been denied.
Regretfully, they could not document any such history.

.. thats a shame. I know that when a soldier could not be discouraged my father arranged interviews with the girls parents and any relative they could produce. Sometimes that was sufficient to uncover anything unusual with the girlfriend. There were other sources of course.

That worked for a while as we victimized Holland where a Canadian soldier could do almost no wrong.

that's pretty funny .... I have mentioned this many times but when the RCR were in Holland I know my father was immensely proud of his troops who voluntarily reduced their rations to 1200 cal per day so that the balance could be distributed to the Dutch citizens. It may not sound like much but a young guy carrying a big load in the cold can burn a tremendous number of calories in a day - as we have seen on Arctic Ex. in Canada. Very much to their credit the Dutch have never forgotten.

Canadian dependents were also told what they should do in the event that the cold war got hot. My mother listened to the detailed briefing and with the experience of having lived through the blitz in England and having seen large troop movements in Surrey and surrounding counties - announced that she would be `staying put`!

 

[fat tony]

USN Battle damage report excerpt: USS TANG

SECTION X

U.S.S. TANG (SS306)

Loss in Action

Formosa Strait

24 October 1944

Class


SS285

Builder


U.S. Navy Yard, Mare Island

Commissioned


November 1943

Length (Overall)


311 ft. 8 in.

Beam (Extreme)


27 ft. 3-1/4 in.

Submergence Depth (Designed Maximum) (Axis)


400 ft.

Displacements

Standard


1525 tons

Emergency Diving Trim,


1956 tons

Submerged


2408 tons

Draft (Mean, Emergency Diving


16 ft. 2 in.

Type of Propulsion


Diesel Electric Reduction Drive

Main Engines (4)


Fairbanks-Morse 38-D-8-1/8

Main Motors (4) and Generators (4)


Elliott Co.​

U-977 sustains a torpedo shot from USS ATULE November 13, 1946

USS TANG in happier days:

Plate showing torpedo damage to USS TANG

Zoom & pan version of the above:

http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/WarDamageReports/SummWarDamageSub7DEC41-12AUG45/PlateX.jpg

Media referred to:

SUBMARINE REPORT

DEPTH CHARGE, BOMB, MINE, TORPEDO

AND GUNFIRE DAMAGE

INCLUDING LOSSES IN ACTION

7 DECEMBER, 1941 TO 15 AUGUST, 1945

VOLUME I​

http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/War...AUG45/SummWarDamageSub7DEC41-12AUG45Vol1.html

 

[fat tony]

 

[fraserdw]

Child soldiers were not a uniquely Hitlerjugend phenomenon:

Here we see the surrender of General Skeletor to some Soviet kid. Seriously, who is the poor stunned bugger at right? Anybody know?

One even younger:

Perhaps younger yet:

Were these kids actually combatants, or are these pics just evidence of someone goofin' around? The last one smacks of "Here, kid. Hold this. Look fierce. Smile, already!"

German civil police, a colonel I believe.

 

[scott585]

early whack-a-mole mechanism?

 

[fat tony]

C'mon, lets have some more guesses, and no cheating!