Picture of the day

[AP]

So is this the only way we can bring Montreal and Toronto back to reality, drop an atomic bomb on them????

Double tap!

 

[AP]

So is this the only way we can bring Montreal and Toronto back to reality, drop an atomic bomb on them????

Are you mad? I live in the GTA .... most of the population are so egocentric that if you dropped a thermonuclear device here...they would see the fireball and assume it was a 'Divine Sign' that they were indeed the chosen people.

 

[grelmar]

So is this the only way we can bring Montreal and Toronto back to reality, drop an atomic bomb on them????

Sacrifices must be made

 

[AP]

I had at least one family member and a number of family friends who were intensely glad that those atomic bombs were dropped on Japan -- because they were slated to be transferred from the European to the Pacific Theatre to participate in the planned invasion of the Japanese home islands.

The conservative estimate at the time (by the planners) was that the invasion was going to cost over a million Allied casualties. It was fully expected that the casualties among the Japanese defenders would be on a similar scale ... and Japanese civilian casualties quite probably would be much much worse, possibly even rivalling those in Saipan in percentage of the population. (Saipan, of course, is the island where ALL the Japanese civilians committed suicide by jumping off cliffs rather than be conquered by the invading American task force). On top of which, the entire country would probably have resembled Caen, Monte Cassino or Stalingrad in usable infrastructure left for the civilians to rebuild upon once the fighting was over.

And THAT is why the Allies decided to drop those bombs -- on industrial port cities that were, frankly, legitimate military targets. Of course, in all honesty, when they dropped the Bombs, they knew that they were going to be more powerful than preceding ones, but nobody truly understood just what an exponential increase in destructiveness they represented over, say, a 1000-plane raid equipped with incendiaries or 20,000 pounders... Nobody really understood what the effects of the nuclear fallout would be either on the surrounding population -- as clearly demonstrated by the rather 'casual' attitude they had taken up until then about fallout risk for their scientific and military observers at the first tests...

Bottomline: It is very easy to say in hindsight -- with full knowledge of the effects of radiation, fallout dispersal, blast zones, etc etc -- that dropping the Bombs "should not have happened". But all of that knowledge came either from seeing the effects of the Bombs themselves on Hiroshima and Nagasaki or from witnessing the effects of later nuclear tests. At the time, what they knew was that they had some very powerful new weapons, that if they deployed them they could destroy the Japanese Samurai/military government's very foundation by proving that it was completely helpless to protect its people and thus force Japan to the treaty table, and that if they DIDN'T do that then at least a million more of their own soldiers would die along with uncounted millions of Japanese soldiers and civilians.

Certainly my WW2 veteran friends who would probably have died in the invasion if the Bombs hadn't been dropped have never expressed any regret over surviving on those terms...

Agreed...I remember as a young boy in the UK frequentally seeing a former Brit POW who had been held by Japanese. The Japanese army practiced a particularly brutal treatment on their prisoners! Folks should read about the rape of Nanking and their other atrocities in China and Korea..before second guessing the decision to drop two Atomic bombs!

 

[bearhunter]

Are you mad? I live in the GTA .... most of the population are so egocentric that if you dropped a thermonuclear device here...they would see the fireball and assume it was a 'Divine Sign' that they were indeed the chosen people.

That would be their epiphany just before they turned to ashes.

 

[sunkmail]

Pictures of the Shells for the Yamato - Taken by me on my trip to Truk in 2010.
(Sorry for all the silt - New with the camera, and others in the group not very careful with their fins)

"The wreck is located at a depth of 50' to 110'. No. 5 hold contains 18.1" armor piercing shells for Yamato and Mushashi. Each shell weighs 3,219 lb. and could be fired 23 miles plus loading equipment, machinery and air compressors"
Reference: Pacific Wrecks

 

[Mister Donut]

Pictures of the Shells for the Yamato - Taken by me on my trip to Truk in 2010.
(Sorry for all the silt - New with the camera, and others in the group not very careful with their fins)

"The wreck is located at a depth of 50' to 110'. No. 5 hold contains 18.1" armor piercing shells for Yamato and Mushashi. Each shell weighs 3,219 lb. and could be fired 23 miles plus loading equipment, machinery and air compressors"
Reference: Pacific Wrecks

Holy $hit, you saw IJN Yamato in real life? I've never gone diving before, but it must have been an amazing experience.

*edit* i just read your post more carefully and followed your link, you dived the cargo ship that carried shells for the 18.1in guns. Still, those things were huge. I think theu have some at the museum in Kure.

 

[fingers284]

Ah yes, Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. I just found out something that sent shivers up my spine, he's from my wife's hometown and I'm going to check out his museum next time I'm there.

Our ancestors hated each other and were killing each other for centuries right up until WWII. My grandfather, who fought against them, would be rolling over in his grave if he found out I was making babies with the enemy, lol![/QUOTE]

And once again a worn old adage is proven true...a stiff ----- has no conscience....

 

[Sharps '63]

Israel and the west are adamant that they don't want Iran to have nuke weapons as that regime has sworn to destroy Israel. Do I think that this is an idle threat? No, I believe they would unleash nukes to achieve their stated objective.
Islamic extremism knows no limits on their aims of establishing an Islamic caliphate and spreading Islam across Europe. Be afraid, be VERY afraid of such extremism.

The same could be said of North Korea. Even the threat of nuclear attack gives them political clout they wouldn't have otherwise.

So with that mentality maybe we should nuke any of the areas where religious fanaticism results in suicide attacks (ISIS , PLO etc) .....NOT

 

[Mister Donut]

Ah yes, Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. I just found out something that sent shivers up my spine, he's from my wife's hometown and I'm going to check out his museum next time I'm there.

Our ancestors hated each other and were killing each other for centuries right up until WWII. My grandfather, who fought against them, would be rolling over in his grave if he found out I was making babies with the enemy, lol![/QUOTE]

And once again a worn old adage is proven true...a stiff ----- has no conscience....

Meh, they're not bad people. Overly polite and very big on etiquette and manners, which I guess isn't a bad thing.

She said sorry for Nanking, even though she wasn't there and neither was I.

My only gripe is she doesn't like sushi even though she was born and raised there, and she doesn't drink sake, even though Niigata, her hometown, is the sake capital of Japan.

She doesn't mind my gun addiction though, and even bought me a few, so I guess she's a keeper, lol!

 

[fraserdw]

Excellent, thanks for the reply. Ever dabble with the more recent Command at Sea (CaS)?

No, I have not naval gamed since the eighties. I dabble in 1/600 scale land warfare using my conversion of Panzerblitz1970 Blitz to minis.

 

[Dark Alley Dan]

Anyhoo, pics:

"Sarge, I think we're hit, but I can't tell where..."

Meanwhile, Karl Heinz got all loaded up on schnapps and took the tank for a ride into town to pick up more booze and maybe some girls.

Der Feldpolizei were unimpressed.

 

[lister]

I had at least one family member and a number of family friends who were intensely glad that those atomic bombs were dropped on Japan -- because they were slated to be transferred from the European to the Pacific Theatre to participate in the planned invasion of the Japanese home islands.

The conservative estimate at the time (by the planners) was that the invasion was going to cost over a million Allied casualties. It was fully expected that the casualties among the Japanese defenders would be on a similar scale ... and Japanese civilian casualties quite probably would be much much worse, possibly even rivalling those in Saipan in percentage of the population. (Saipan, of course, is the island where ALL the Japanese civilians committed suicide by jumping off cliffs rather than be conquered by the invading American task force). On top of which, the entire country would probably have resembled Caen, Monte Cassino or Stalingrad in usable infrastructure left for the civilians to rebuild upon once the fighting was over.

And THAT is why the Allies decided to drop those bombs -- on industrial port cities that were, frankly, legitimate military targets. Of course, in all honesty, when they dropped the Bombs, they knew that they were going to be more powerful than preceding ones, but nobody truly understood just what an exponential increase in destructiveness they represented over, say, a 1000-plane raid equipped with incendiaries or 20,000 pounders... Nobody really understood what the effects of the nuclear fallout would be either on the surrounding population -- as clearly demonstrated by the rather 'casual' attitude they had taken up until then about fallout risk for their scientific and military observers at the first tests...

Bottomline: It is very easy to say in hindsight -- with full knowledge of the effects of radiation, fallout dispersal, blast zones, etc etc -- that dropping the Bombs "should not have happened". But all of that knowledge came either from seeing the effects of the Bombs themselves on Hiroshima and Nagasaki or from witnessing the effects of later nuclear tests. At the time, what they knew was that they had some very powerful new weapons, that if they deployed them they could destroy the Japanese Samurai/military government's very foundation by proving that it was completely helpless to protect its people and thus force Japan to the treaty table, and that if they DIDN'T do that then at least a million more of their own soldiers would die along with uncounted millions of Japanese soldiers and civilians.

Certainly my WW2 veteran friends who would probably have died in the invasion if the Bombs hadn't been dropped have never expressed any regret over surviving on those terms...

Exactly.

 

[Sharps '63]

And I married a Fraulein while I was stationed in Germany. That was a mistake, as it was for a great many Canadian soldiers. The Army actively discouraged marriage to German nationals as the stats proved that a high percentage would fail.

By the time I left Germany, I was of the opinion that we dropped the bomb on the wrong people, but I was a little biased.

Meh, they're not bad people. Overly polite and very big on etiquette and manners, which I guess isn't a bad thing.

She said sorry for Nanking, even though she wasn't there and neither was I.

My only gripe is she doesn't like sushi even though she was born and raised there, and she doesn't drink sake, even though Niigata, her hometown, is the sake capital of Japan.

She doesn't mind my gun addiction though, and even bought me a few, so I guess she's a keeper, lol!

 

[dryfire]

Israel and the west are adamant that they don't want Iran to have nuke weapons as that regime has sworn to destroy Israel. Do I think that this is an idle threat? No, I believe they would unleash nukes to achieve their stated objective.
Islamic extremism knows no limits on their aims of establishing an Islamic caliphate and spreading Islam across Europe. Be afraid, be VERY afraid of such extremism.

The same could be said of North Korea. Even the threat of nuclear attack gives them political clout they wouldn't have otherwise.

As you say turning a blind eye to extremism of any kind whether religious , political or philosophical which advocates removal or elimination of any other free people is dangerously naive. However advocating the use of any nuclear weapon is just as dangerous considering what we know of the nature of those weapons whether tactical or strategic. The use of them can only lead to further use and that same political clout it seems was the justification for the proliferation of the weapons by US and USSR in the decades after WWII but the rest of world had to sit by and watch as many countries still do.

 

[Mister Donut]

OK, so nukes are a touchy subject and clearly there are disagreements.....anyone want to keep talking about big bad-ass battleships?

 

[Sharps '63]

Pocket Battleship "Scharnhorst" class?

 

[Brookwood]

Judging by the location of the aircraft recovery crane and the AA gun on the RH side of the pic, I'm guessing the Bismarck and not the Tirpitz?

Brookwood

 

[Mister Donut]

Judging by the location of the aircraft recovery crane and the AA gun on the RH side of the pic, I'm guessing the Bismarck and not the Tirpitz?

Brookwood

Yup...Bismark

Here's another one for you guys that are good at figuring things out:

 

[lister]

Tirpitz?

Pretty sure I spelled that wrong, but you get the idea.