Picture of the day

So much for my theory...

That's interesting. So the three rounds were HE, they did not penetrate, nor did they detonate-- but the impact was enough to crack the armour and cause enough spalling to neutralize the turret crew. And they told us in training that HE was harmless! :mad:

Here's what happens if you hit a Tiger on the gun mantlet at point blank :

f9fb09fe29f04f60d1afc309f91c0846.jpg
 

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Cdn303 said:
Or three tanks all had HE in the pipe and let loose at the same time.
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Old Albertan said:
Quite possible. They also would have to have been aiming at the same spot.
Click to expand...

It's well known that the Sherman was outclassed by both the Panther and the Tiger. It wasn't unusual to have a platoon of 4 or 5 Shermans go after one Panther or Tiger and lose two before the German tank was knocked out (usually by hits at the rear of the German tank). It's more than possible that 3 Shermans let go at the same aiming point (the turret) at the same time.
 
Cold Warrior said:
That's interesting. So the three rounds were HE, they did not penetrate, nor did they detonate-- but the impact was enough to crack the armour and cause enough spalling to neutralize the turret crew. And they told us in training that HE was harmless! :mad:

Here's what happens if you hit a Tiger on the gun mantlet at point blank :

View attachment 57924
Click to expand...

Looks like one round also jammed the turret ring.

Auggie D.
 
Auggie Doggie said:
Looks like one round also jammed the turret ring.

Auggie D.
Click to expand...

IIRC the famous Tiger at the Bovington museum was captured d/t crew abandonment---a Churchill round jammed the turret ring and the crew must've lost their nerve and took off.

Re: HE vs AP rounds against tanks, wouldn't the kinetic energy (weight of an HE projectile going at whatever speed) alone put a dent/damage in a tank? Then there is the explosion itself---I thought I heard of tanks losing their turrets d/t large HE shells landing near them--Is that true?

Thank you all for your contributions so far. I find this fascinating!
 
shredder said:
It's well known that the Sherman was outclassed by both the Panther and the Tiger. It wasn't unusual to have a platoon of 4 or 5 Shermans go after one Panther or Tiger and lose two before the German tank was knocked out (usually by hits at the rear of the German tank). It's more than possible that 3 Shermans let go at the same aiming point (the turret) at the same time.
Click to expand...

That could be, but I think it's far more likely that those rounds came from a single tank firing 'AFAP'
('As Fast As Possible').
The chances of three tanks shooting that kind of 'group' under that kind of stress? Not likely, even from short range. It's strange how they used the HE though, unless that's all they had left. Once our gunners were locked on a target they were taught to keep firing until the command, "Target! Cease fire!" was given.

"That's too coincidental to be a coincidence!" Yogi Berra
 
Good group:

6x1gPix.jpg
 
zupermann said:
IIRC the famous Tiger at the Bovington museum was captured d/t crew abandonment---a Churchill round jammed the turret ring and the crew must've lost their nerve and took off.

Re: HE vs AP rounds against tanks, wouldn't the kinetic energy (weight of an HE projectile going at whatever speed) alone put a dent/damage in a tank? Then there is the explosion itself---I thought I heard of tanks losing their turrets d/t large HE shells landing near them--Is that true?

Thank you all for your contributions so far. I find this fascinating!
Click to expand...

HE shells that are larger diameter than the thickness of the plate can, and they can also generate spall, which is the surface on the inside of the armour flaking off and shooting ito the interior like a newtons cradle.

i saw a video of a non penetrating AP round hitting a chunk of armour, and the rear of the plate got red hot from dissipating the kinetic energy
 
Cold Warrior said:
That could be, but I think it's far more likely that those rounds came from a single tank firing 'AFAP' ('As Fast As Possible'). The chances of three tanks shooting that kind of 'group' under that kind of stress? Not likely, even from short range. It's strange how they used the HE though, unless that's all they had left. Once our gunners were locked on a target they were taught to keep firing until the command, "Target! Cease fire!" was given. "That's too coincidental to be a coincidence!" Yogi Berra
Click to expand...

I think that's likely, i.e. a single tank encountering the Panther, perhaps at short range, and firing 'AFAP'.
 
zupermann said:
Re: HE vs AP rounds against tanks, wouldn't the kinetic energy (weight of an HE projectile going at whatever speed) alone put a dent/damage in a tank? Then there is the explosion itself---I thought I heard of tanks losing their turrets d/t large HE shells landing near them--Is that true? Thank you all for your contributions so far. I find this fascinating!
Click to expand...

Yes, a sufficiently large explosion next to the tank (and not a direct hit, but a near miss) can still destroy the vehicle. During the 'tank plinking' days of the 1991 Persian Gulf war, large numbers of 500 lb Paveway laser guided bombs were used to destroy Iraqi tanks in their positions and not all of them were direct hits. In that case it was about 192 lbs of Tritonal going off a few feet from the tank.

349002498_655ff8f3e1_b.jpg


Edit: Added pic (to offset chatter).
 
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zupermann said:
Re: HE vs AP rounds against tanks, wouldn't the kinetic energy (weight of an HE projectile going at whatever speed) alone put a dent/damage in a tank? Then there is the explosion itself---I thought I heard of tanks losing their turrets d/t large HE shells landing near them--Is that true?
Click to expand...

It is theoretically possible to do any amount of damage given enough HE. However, the HE rounds used from tank guns would unlikely have the penetrating power to punch through another tanks armour, especially the front. These days, straight up HE is not prevalent on tanks, if it exists at all, but instead they have variations such as the HEDP (High Explosive Dual Purpose), HESH (High Explosive Squash Head) and HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank). But since these rounds are quite dated as well, they are defeated by modern armour so their use is somewhat restricted to bunkers, unarmoured and lightly armoured vehicles. The US used HEAT rounds from their M1s on MLTBs during the first Gulf War to great effect.
 
Old Albertan said:
It is theoretically possible to do any amount of damage given enough HE. However, the HE rounds used from tank guns would unlikely have the penetrating power to punch through another tanks armour, especially the front. These days, straight up HE is not prevalent on tanks, if it exists at all, but instead they have variations such as the HEDP (High Explosive Dual Purpose), HESH (High Explosive Squash Head) and HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank). But since these rounds are quite dated as well, they are defeated by modern armour so their use is somewhat restricted to bunkers, unarmoured and lightly armoured vehicles. The US used HEAT rounds from their M1s on MLTBs during the first Gulf War to great effect.
Click to expand...

And HEMP (High Explosive Multi-Purpose), something the Israelis have adopted (as M339 HE-MP-T) for the urban operations mission, being useful against structures, light armour, and enemy troops.
 
The concussion of HE rounds detonating on armoured vehicles or near them can break both hydraulic lines and
fuel lines which is muchos bad news for armoured vehicle crews. Any sensitive items in the tank like optics or
radios might need a bit of fine-tuning by technicians if the vehicle makes it back to friendly lines. As for the
the surviving crew, I'm sure getting properly "hydrated" will be on their to do list.
 
zupermann said:
Just curious---for you guys with tank experience, Is that damage survivable for the crew? Or does the concussion from the HE explosion go through the crack(s) and kills the crew?
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While the write up regarding this wartime picture says it was struck with HE (Chemical Energy) I feel the damage, and lack of damage, is far more consistent with the target being struck with a Armour Piercing (Kinetic Energy) round. The gouges look like others I have seen in the past is where the AP projectile scallops out a divot of target armour and the dramatic transfer of Kinetic energy on the target results in the target steel shattering. Further to support this is the lack of secondary damage within the target area note that the round bin is totally undamaged by blast or spall (only valid if the turret was as depicted in the 12 Oclock position as in the pic). There is no evidence of HE spatter or spalling on either the target armour or hull fixtures and the lack of zimmert coating in the impact area looks localized due to KE rounds and the vibration/resonance of impact. When the Germans had to demill the East German tanks post reunification the expedient was to drop a large wrecking ball from height to shatter the armour. Once the allies arrived in France they rushed to learn as much as possible about the Mk5 tank and this included test shots on captured Panthers, seems they had dismissed the Soviets reports regarding the Panther and had to learn some harsh lessons on the fly.

Panther.jpg

^ CFB Borden Panther back in the 1950s

Panther_CWM.JPG


^ With a new paint job at CWM

2e30b5k.jpg


^ Two super vehicles.
 
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Cold Warrior said:
That could be, but I think it's far more likely that those rounds came from a single tank firing 'AFAP'
('As Fast As Possible').
The chances of three tanks shooting that kind of 'group' under that kind of stress? Not likely, even from short range. It's strange how they used the HE though, unless that's all they had left. Once our gunners were locked on a target they were taught to keep firing until the command, "Target! Cease fire!" was given.
Click to expand...

I've got a difficult time believing that ONE tank can fire that fast and hit 3x in the exact same spot - at least back in those days when the gun was laid manually. One tank shooting that kind of group AFAP under stress?? I don't know about that. It's hard enough to do that with a rifle never mind a tank gun.

That said, you're the tanker, not me. I was Field Artillery.
 
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