Picture of the day

The Nazi era cast a long shadow indeed. The residual guilt from all of this was a big driver for modern Germany devising its current refugee and migrant policies in a way that they cannot be seen to be intolerant or racist in any way, shape or form. And that has come back to bite them in a big way over the past several years. The social and economic consequences of massive migrant flow may just topple the current government and cause a political tilt to the right.

I knew a number of German officers during my service. They are educated in an ethic (can't recall the exact German word for this but it means something like inner spirit or conscience)which requires them to question illegal/immoral orders and to disobey them on principle. That's a cornerstone of our own military ethos.

No names, no pack drill, but we had a couple of ex-Hitler Youth serving as NCOs in the PPCLI during my time. They were both excellent soldiers, and by good luck and circumstances were not sent out as armed children to meet the allied advance in late 1945.

Interestingly, quite a few ex-SS troops wound up serving in the French Foreign Legion immediately after WW2 and a lot of them were killed under the Legion banner in Indo China.

I've owned a number of German surplus pieces, but never thought of them as anything but a sound piece of engineering. I've always found the P08 Luger to be a remarkable piece of work and a sporterized M98 byf44 in 7x57 has gotten me some nice deer. When I was a kid most of the vets had a P38 or a Luger as a remembrance that right did prevail over wrong and the bit part that they played in this.

Gerald, you are right about politicians and diplomats being the root cause of bad things. I suppose we could lump in various brands of priests too. Funnily enough, most professional soldiers, self-included, are pretty ardent pacifists.
 
bearhunter said:
Here is something to consider. If you had the opportunity to collect KGB and Soviet Special Unit firearms from 1914 to the fall of the Soviet Union, would you??? Of course you would. Certain aspects of that empire were utterly and completely evil. There is a very good chance that the Soviets killed many more of their own people than the Nazi forces did. What is the fascination there???
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This is strange, but as a guy who married into a Lithuanian family, I have zero interest in accumulating the bits and pieces of kit used/worn by an agency responsible for shipping a third of Lithuania to Siberia for reasons of political paranoia and hard-headedness. And yet, given the opportunity to own a Knight's Cross for under $1k, I'd be on that like stink on the proverbial monkey.

I have no explanation for this. Perhaps if I'd married into a Jewish or Polish family, I would feel rather the opposite. People are funny, me included.
 
Hmmm, small world .... I passed through PPCLI Depot (2nd BN) at Griesbach Barracks before heading to my Corps School at Vimy. One of my platoon NCO's was just such a person. Born to be a soldier.

The first pistol I ever fired was a Byf P-38. It belonged to an uncle in a family and he let us take it on a wilderness camping trip along with a bag full of 9mm hardball. I believe that he fought for the other side in the big one. We rendered a lot of Coke bottles and cans h'ors de combat. That was the beginning of the decline in my hearing.

purple said:
No names, no pack drill, but we had a couple of ex-Hitler Youth serving as NCOs in the PPCLI during my time. They were both excellent soldiers, and by good luck and circumstances were not sent out as armed children to meet the allied advance in late 1945.

I was a kid most of the vets had a P38 or a Luger as a remembrance that right did prevail over wrong and the bit part that they played in this.
Funnily enough, most professional soldiers, self-included, are pretty ardent pacifists.
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I have no interest in collecting memorabilia from any army. I will leave that to others.
I have a great interest in history however and the great wars of the 20th century cannot be over looked.
I do get annoyed at people who fixate on one aspect to the exclusion of relevant information from elsewhere. PS I am guilty of this myself!
Just my two bits worth.
 
Dark Alley Dan said:
This is strange, but as a guy who married into a Lithuanian family, I have zero interest in accumulating the bits and pieces of kit used/worn by an agency responsible for shipping a third of Lithuania to Siberia for reasons of political paranoia and hard-headedness. And yet, given the opportunity to own a Knight's Cross for under $1k, I'd be on that like stink on the proverbial monkey.

I have no explanation for this. Perhaps if I'd married into a Jewish or Polish family, I would feel rather the opposite. People are funny, me included.
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Yes - I understand that Lithuanians are well aware of the special kind of treatment that the Soviets were fond of meting out in countries they invaded. Of that generation within the educated and upper and middle class, the lucky ones managed to escape into Germany and DP camps before coming here - the unlucky ones just disappeared... permanently. Its instructive to hear the stories of how young men were "recruited" into the German Army or the Soviet Army (depending on who was in occupation at the time) ... it was an "invitation" very hard to refuse - particularly from the Soviets if you wanted to live.
 
Here is a bit of my family history. My father was a bit of a blue blood whose father was named after Czar Nicholas who was a personal friend of my Great Grandfather who was an upper class Prussian with Russian blood royalty ties. Big deal? meh. My Great Grandmother was from Bavaria. My Grandfather was in the Prussian military until after the collapse of White Russia and he was still a supporter of it until his death in the early fifties. Nasty old bugger. He and his father refused to take the Red Russian buy out of White Russian currency which was payable in Silver. About 1919 those certificates were declared valueless because the Soviets had established a new currency. The bank delivered a couple of truck loads of WR cash to their farm just a couple of miles out of Beiseker Alberta. They used it to start the fire in the cook stove etc.

My mother's family came from International Traders/Gypsies/Farmers/Vendors. Mongrels, everyone of them. They came out of Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Germany/Austria/Hungary. They traveled all over the world looking for a place to settle and my grandmother had 9 children that lived and 4 that didn't. He was 12 years older than she was and they were married under Gypsy protocol in Rome on her 14th birthday. You figure out protocol. My Grandmother was born in the back of a Gypsy wagon just out of Moscow where the Gypsies were under the protection of the Czar. She claimed that Rasputin bout her a dress. She was devoutly Russian Orthodox and had this huge jewel encrusted crucifix on a gold chain that she would bring out at Christmas and Easter as an Icon.

Every one of their ancestors were persecuted in one way or another by one political/religious factor or another. Some of the descendants of those persecutors and even some of the persecutors still exist and some even harbor the same beliefs of those evil times as being altruistic.

DAD, we all have our monsters under the bed. The guilt isn't yours to bear. I like the old adage to forgive is blessed but to be wary is prudent.

John, thanks for taking the time to stop by and say HI in Vernon. I have the utmost respect for soldiers and to a point for some combatants that aren't. My reasons are personal of course. Some combatants I have known were EVIL to their core and loved the mayhem and strife they caused or created. Scum of the earth IMHO. Soldiers do the dirty work for political and religious leaders and get the bad name that goes along with it and with very little real recognition for their efforts. Politicians and religious leaders mostly take advantage of the staunch code of ethics the average soldier lives by and fights by.

Personally, I like military firearms. I like to compare them to each other and have swung out of different collection venues. There was a time when I picked up everything Lee Enfield. Even for hunting rifles. At the same time Mausers of every model I could gather. Same goes for handguns. Now, I have whittled down a lot of those collectibles because I have moved on to others, such as Kropatscheks and Webly antiques. Even a few of the Classical sporting rifles are catching my weakening eyes. I have also noticed a fondness for gathering different variations of Mosin Nagant rifles. Not nearly with the same zest as I used to have. Recoil is a B1tch and I need a new shoulder. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate a decent No1 or No4 or Snider or Mauser from any era though. That's another reason I like gun shows. Often, they are traveling museums with ever changing displays. Amazing what can be found at them.

I prefer to leave the emotion out of who used certain firearms. Negative emotion is debilitating to our physical and mental well being. Positive emotion on the other hand is a blessing. Don't forget to look for the blessings. Often they are fleeting but if you encompass them while they are available you become a very rich person in the most meaningful of ways.

John, in my adventures I have met soldiers I didn't like for a number of reasons. Mostly they were bound by ruthlessness in carrying out their orders. The type of soldier you are and the type of combatant I was were very similar. Of the atrocities I've witnessed, most were done by traumatized or extremely emotional civilians that were often coerced into committing these crimes by the leaders of their political or religious groups or in some cases witch doctors and tribal leaders or just criminal psychos running out of control.
 
[John, in my adventures I have met soldiers I didn't like for a number of reasons. Mostly they were bound by ruthlessness in carrying out their orders. The type of soldier you are and the type of combatant I was were very similar. Of the atrocities I've witnessed, most were done by traumatized or extremely emotional civilians that were often coerced into committing these crimes by the leaders of their political or religious groups or in some cases witch doctors and tribal leaders or just criminal psychos running out of control.[/QUOTE]

The big things that a competent military force can provide in chaotic situations are structure, control and restraint. This assumes that the military force is well led and well disciplined at all times. Leadership is a lot about telling the troops what to do, but it's also as much about telling them what not to do. Leadership must be on the job all the time so that troops don't go off with their own personal agendas, a tough job in dangerous and chaotic situations. This gets back to the state of training of the troops, clear orders, good SOPs and constant and effective vigilance at all levels in the chain of command.

The Somalia fiasco was a direct result of poor leadership at various levels so that guys at the bottom end were able to play out their own little games with no interference from the chain of command. Many still mourn the disbandment of the Airborne Regiment as a result of Somalia. I thought that this was a step too far because the unit could have been rehabilitated by a thorough housecleaning from top to bottom with all non-performers, weak sisters and renegades being sorted out and tossed out. I felt that the leadership in the airborne community was negligent and that they allowed themselves to be co-opted by the troops. Officers should be with the troops, but not of the troops. Leadership is not a popularity contest. On a sliding scale of human needs the leader should first look for obedience, then respect, with popularity being a nice to have. Sometimes you do need to be a prick to get things done right.

If the Liberals get us into peacekeeping in Africa it will not be a happy experience. All of the UN missions in Africa operate in chaotic, primitive conditions with marginal guidance and poor control from the UN. The majority of the troops on the ground are provided by third world countries and they are doing poorly due to a lack of competence in very challenging circumstances. Crime and exploitation of the populations by UN troops is quite widespread. It will test the professionalism of our troops and leaders to the limits.

One of my old COs served in the failed UN mission in the Congo 55 years ago. I didn't understand what he meant when he said that at sometime in my service I might have to deal with the notion of how many little black bambinos I might have to let die to save some others. If our people do go to Africa they will probably need to confront this at some level or another.
 
Your CO sounds like a man that learned the hard way what leadership is about. I have seen poor/weak/corrupt officers executed in the field by disgruntled members of their keep. In one case it happened because the officer had bought his rank and was brutal with both his men and civilians. He was even suspected of being involved in the local slave trade. Yes, Angola had a well established slave trade in the sixties. Because the local Jurras/Mfalme (Kings) felt their subjects were their property and were absolutely corrupt with their godlike powers within the tribes. Long lines of people in neck and linked ankle chains were a common sight as were bloated bodies of those killed by their handlers or those that just died because they wanted to. I have seen people sit down by a rock and will themselves to die. They just stop breathing or stop their hearts from beating because their lot in life will never change, other than to get worse. There was a lot of money to be made at all levels of the slave industry. Still is.

I am surprised to hear your denigrating comments on Third World UN troops. I know exactly where you are coming from but still ??????????? I once met a Nigerian Captain that couldn't read or write. He was appointed as an officer to the Army because his mother was married to a high ranking politician in Nigeria. I will admit, he wasn't as bad as some I've met but he still had a sense of entitlement. He was extremely lucky to have a well educated but low caste NCO whom the troops loved but still feared his wrath. He kept those men in line and they were actually respected by the locals.

As for being a prick to keep troops in line and motivated I agree it can be necessary. Officers can be compassionate but must keep the mission in sight until it's changed or becomes untenable. Good NCOs are worth their weight in gold. The job of NCOs is to keep the troops in line for the duty and be the strong shoulders to cry on as well as take care of the things that should stay with the troops on their level.

Non regular troops and often drafted troops constantly struggle for position. A good officer with good NCOs should be able to keep them on track while maintaining stability and confidence in appropriate leadership on all levels. It's a troopy's job to B1tch and the officer's job to give them a reason to while the NCO gets to listen to it all and keep it on that level.

Rebel factions or even armed civilian combatants just protecting themselves are a totally different bunch. Usually leaders rise up that the people will follow for a number of reasons. Usually through demonstrated skills or just plain common sense to fight within their limitations and get as few people killed or mutilated as possible. If you want to see some real Pr!cks using some brutal methods of control ???????????????

From the little I see of non regular combatants in the Middle East, they appear to be non regulars that are often out of control and use brutality to enforce their control. In such situations life is not precious and non useful or disruptive/recalcitrant individuals are dealt with accordingly. It will eventually be their undoing. At first I was skeptical about US/Canadian/Nato/UN troops pulling out and letting the locals go at it themselves. Now I see the wisdom behind that decision. Everything there is completely convoluted and corrupt at all levels. Likely, the west will be in conflict situations with whomever wins. Turkey is between a rock and a hard place. Judging any individual civilian there as a good or bad person would take a lot of due diligence.
 
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bearhunter said:
At first I was skeptical about US/Canadian/Nato/UN troops pulling out and letting the locals go at it themselves. Now I see the wisdom behind that decision. Everything there is completely convoluted and corrupt at all levels. Likely, the west will be in conflict situations with whomever wins. Turkey is between a rock and a hard place. Judging any individual civilian there as a good or bad person would take a lot of due diligence.
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If you guys haven't read P.J. O'Rourque, you really should. Hell of a writer, bright, cynical where appropriate, and funny as a dogfight.

He was in Somalia at the time of the whole Blackhawk Down thing. He recalls riding with Marines as they escorted a convoy of corn to a remote village full of starving people. They drove past mile after mile of corn fields, all in full honk and ready for harvest, but the locals weren't allowed to touch it on pain of death. He thought that was pretty fecked up. He asked a Marine if there was a solution to Somalia. The Marine suggested the only fix was to "provide better weapons and training and seal the borders".

We send our people to awful places to put a lid on awful people doing awful things. They can't fix the place, or the people, or the behaviour. I can't imagine how frustrating that must be. You'd meet any number of people for whom the correct prescription is a deep hole someplace out of traffic, but you can't apply the prescription because "we're the civilized ones here". Child rapists in Afghanistan? Can't shoot them, they're the "good guys". What a hell of a thing we ask these people to do.

Anyhow, pictures. Can you name the vehicle?

Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-300-1863-30,_Riva-Bella,_Waffenvorf%C3%BChrung_Panzerwerfer.jpg
 
Dark Alley Dan said:
If you guys haven't read P.J. O'Rourque, you really should. Hell of a writer, bright, cynical where appropriate, and funny as a dogfight.

He was in Somalia at the time of the whole Blackhawk Down thing. He recalls riding with Marines as they escorted a convoy of corn to a remote village full of starving people. They drove past mile after mile of corn fields, all in full honk and ready for harvest, but the locals weren't allowed to touch it on pain of death. He thought that was pretty fecked up. He asked a Marine if there was a solution to Somalia. The Marine suggested the only fix was to "provide better weapons and training and seal the borders".

We send our people to awful places to put a lid on awful people doing awful things. They can't fix the place, or the people, or the behaviour. I can't imagine how frustrating that must be. You'd meet any number of people for whom the correct prescription is a deep hole someplace out of traffic, but you can't apply the prescription because "we're the civilized ones here". Child rapists in Afghanistan? Can't shoot them, they're the "good guys". What a hell of a thing we ask these people to do.

Anyhow, pictures. Can you name the vehicle?

Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-300-1863-30,_Riva-Bella,_Waffenvorf%C3%BChrung_Panzerwerfer.jpg
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8 cm Raketen-Vielfachwerfer, which was a copy of the Soviet M-8 Katyusha, mounted on a captured French SOMUA MCG with a fancy new paint job.

Never say that Zee Germans weren't willing to adapt and adopt the methods and equipment of their enemies.
 
Dark Alley Dan said:
pzw43_01.jpg


(Different suspension on that one, and fewer/bigger rockets. Same chassis?)
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Nah, that one is pure German. Mercedes-Benz L4500R chassis up-armoured and mounted with the 15CM rocket launcher.

The 8CM launcher version (same launcher as on the French halftrack above) was designated the SdKfz 4 Gleisketten-Lastkraftwagen, around 1400-1500 built. The 15CM launcher version pictured was much rarer, around 300 built, designate SdKfz 4/1 Gleisketten-Lastkraftwagen.

(and before anyone goes mistaking me for clever - I'm not terribly, just have good google-fu)
 
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