Picture of the day
- Thread starter jwhc
- Start date
Blow a couple holes in the locomotive boiler with some .50 cal AP rounds and said locomotive will likely become shrapnel, which will derail the train.
THEN you call in the Typhoons or Thunderbolts with the rockets!!!
Blowing a hole in the tracks when the train is ten miles off gives the train ample time to stop or be rerouted. Blow a hole 100 yards in front, well then.....
Sorry folks, it doesn't happen like that in real life. The clip is dramatic, but technically (as far as the locomotive explosion/derailment) it doesn't make any sense, to the point it's laughable. I've got over 3,500 hours logged as a steam locomotive engineer/fireman and much more than that as a steam engine mechanic. I'm also a 4th class Power Engineer and CEO of a boiler manufacturing company. Multiple holes rapidly punched in your boiler will definitely make your day interesting, but the likelihood of your boiler exploding catastrophically (without the use of explosive ordnance) as a result is very slim. Yes, it will put on a heck of a show of escaping steam that I would not want to be anywhere near, but blow up the locomotive as seen in the clip from Red Tails? Extremely unlikely without assistance from an explosive round. What it will do is compromise the boiler, allowing it to purge its self of steam and prevent the shell from retaining any pressure thus rendering it incapable of providing power to the engines as well as cause mechanical damage to other integral systems (running gear, brakes, water/air pumps, lubricators, ect,). Take out the locomotive and the train isn't going anywhere.
THAT'S when you call in the rocket firing Tiffys and go to town making a great big mess that will take some time and effort to clean up, as well as tying up the line. Otherwise you leave behind a dead (but repairable) locomotive and shot up train that is otherwise intact, and all the enemy has to do is just couple up a functional locomotive and go on their merry way.
The US Army issued a technical manual - Operation, Inspection and Maintenance of Steam Locomotives and Locomotive Cranes, Department of the Army Technical Manual TM 55-201 and it has a section that specifically deals with the scenario of being strafed. It advises the holes in the shell be temporarily sealed with a 'patch bolt', a large self tapping, steam tight screw with coarse threads and a tapered shank. Leaking boiler tubes are to be plugged with tapered wooden plugs. It is a field repair, the point being you plug the holes, build up steam and nurse the locomotive/train out of the combat zone to the nearest friendly backshop. Although dramatic (we've all seen the WW2 gun camera footage clips of steam locomotives being strafed), machine gun fire is survivable and not as devastatingly explosive as it is perceived to be.
Cheers,
Brookwood
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Bubba Yugga
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Midwestern Ontario
Thanks Brookwood, greatly appreciated.
Precisely. Cars filled with explosive material, and lots of steam from ruptured boilers, but not one boiler explosion (despite what the narrator says at 5:18 - 5:23. Those are clearly munitions filled cars).
Brookwood
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True, but rare with such a target of opportunity in the heat of combat and mostly in France where the SNCF (France's national state-owned railway) employees were pressed into running trains for the Wehrmacht. However, if there were AA cars that shot back or it was obviously a military train, it was every man for himself.
Brookwood
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I took a number of trains in France, Holland, Germany and Italy this spring and some of those suckers were fast, maybe fast enough to outrun a Mustang or a Spit if they were throttled back for a low level strafing run. 
The Soviet MBV was used more strategically than tactically. And it was fairly successful. In the siege of Leningrad, it was used as a repositionable artillery/command bunker.
After WWII, armoured trains were used primarily for COIN operations in the dying years of the great European Empires. They provided mobile firepower and protection for moving infantry across hostile countryside without a defined front. Even if derailed, they were an instant strongpoint that could (in theory) hold until re-enforcements arrived.
In practice, they were largely obsolete after WWI. But like a lot of other doctrines and technologies from the First World War, it took an extra fifty years for the generals an politicians to adapt to the changes.
Keep in mind, that almost every major power was working on semi-auto battle rifles by the end of WWI (and in some cases even before), but only thr US went into WWII with a semi auto as their standard rifle.
Sometimes, it takes a long time for an obsolete idea to die.
After WWII, armoured trains were used primarily for COIN operations in the dying years of the great European Empires. They provided mobile firepower and protection for moving infantry across hostile countryside without a defined front. Even if derailed, they were an instant strongpoint that could (in theory) hold until re-enforcements arrived.
In practice, they were largely obsolete after WWI. But like a lot of other doctrines and technologies from the First World War, it took an extra fifty years for the generals an politicians to adapt to the changes.
Keep in mind, that almost every major power was working on semi-auto battle rifles by the end of WWI (and in some cases even before), but only thr US went into WWII with a semi auto as their standard rifle.
Sometimes, it takes a long time for an obsolete idea to die.
Mr. Dynamite
CGN Regular
- Location
- Northern Alberta
I read about a locomotive in England during the the Battle of Britain that was strafed and they said as the German fighter passed right over the engine the "boiler exploded." (as has been mentioned, possibly just a large sudden release of steam rather than sudden mass catestrophic boiler failure) Well the locomotive exploded right into the belly of the fighter plane, and this caused the plane to lose control and crash, but the engine was fixable, and in a short amount of time was back out on the railway. I guess they had the last laugh!
There's the big tip off that it wasn't a boiler explosion. When a locomotive boiler explodes, there's very little left to salvage -
What makes a boiler explosion so catastrophic is the sudden and rapid change of state of the volume of heated water contained in the pressure vessel into steam. This is not a science forum so I'll keep it brief. At sea level, water boils at 100 °C (212 °F). Under pressure however, the change of state threshold temperature goes up. So at 200 PSI (the average pressure these engines ran at) the boiling temperature is 194 C (382 F). Water changing state into steam expands at roughly 1,700 times it's original volume. So, that means if a locomotive boiler gets a big enough hole in it to allow the pressure to rapidly drop to sea level (14.7 PSI), the heated water inside the boiler which is almost twice the temperature of the boiling point at sea level will expand 1,700 times it's volume instantly. Note I said a big hole - multiple small holes (relatively speaking) that don't severely compromise the integrity of the shell allow the steam to purge (thus reducing the pressure/temperature) in a 'controlled' manner until the pressure drops to sea level (locomotive boilers are extremely robust with an average shell thickness of 5/8 and in some spots up to 1 1/4" inch thickness). It will put on a big show, but not result in a catastrophic explosion. That's it in a nutshell.
For interests sake, here's the result of a bomb blast near a locomotive in France -
And another one -
The shockwave of the bomb blast hit the front of the locomotive (smokebox) from the side and tore it off, causing the boiler to partially explode (note the distorted boiler tubes). Also of note, unlike RED TAILS, the locomotive and train are still upright and on the tracks.
Brookwood
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Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Many thanks, Brookwood, for the benefit of your wisdom. I find steam power awesome, in the traditional sense of the word, and enjoy learning about it whenever I can. There's something very much "alive" about steam locomotives. Maybe it's the respiration. But I think they're the closest thing any of us will ever see to a living, breathing dinosaur. Or maybe Godzilla.
And for the record, I'd like to state that Redtails was the worst CGI bullsh!t gongshow of a movie I have ever endured. A mess from start to finish, and no closer to reality than Ru Paul's Drag Race.
Here's a real P40 doing something that actually happened:
And for the record, I'd like to state that Redtails was the worst CGI bullsh!t gongshow of a movie I have ever endured. A mess from start to finish, and no closer to reality than Ru Paul's Drag Race.
Here's a real P40 doing something that actually happened:
"Dear Johann
I'm Leaving you for Franz, the dairy farmer.
He is always around and knows how to treat my udders."
Swiss, Karporal.
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
The engine's at "full chat", and there are six fifties blaring away. It's well after dark.
Bet the neighbours loved them. "Let's move next to the airbase, Marjorie. Plenty to see, lots of fun..."
Bet the neighbours loved them. "Let's move next to the airbase, Marjorie. Plenty to see, lots of fun..."
Personally I think Armored Trains are still very viable asset when used within its limitations.Story of Krajina Express 1991-95 proves that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajina_Express
I think there is a large number of old ideas that will be coming back.Off the top of my head- bicycle troops,redoubt type of fortifications (that's already back in Afghanistan since 1980s).
I think there is a large number of old ideas that will be coming back.Off the top of my head- bicycle troops,redoubt type of fortifications (that's already back in Afghanistan since 1980s).
A little bit lower and slower...
The Soviet MBV-2 Armoured train.
Developped in the late 30's, 2 were built and used throughout the war. The guns were progressively upgraded, and one is on display at the Kubinka Tank Museum:
When the train absolutely, positively, has to make it on time... MBV-2. Accept no substitute.
Don't have to kill the train, just the tracks.
Phew! Karl, enough with the sauerkraut and debreziner saugages.
http://www.bikeexif.com/condor-a580-motorcycle
Smaller displacement Condor model A350 Modified Ducati design engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condor_A350
http://www.bikeexif.com/condor-a580-motorcycle
Smaller displacement Condor model A350 Modified Ducati design engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condor_A350
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Many thanks, Brookwood, for the benefit of your wisdom. I find steam power awesome, in the traditional sense of the word, and enjoy learning about it whenever I can. There's something very much "alive" about steam locomotives. Maybe it's the respiration. But I think they're the closest thing any of us will ever see to a living, breathing dinosaur. Or maybe Godzilla.
And for the record, I'd like to state that Redtails was the worst CGI bullsh!t gongshow of a movie I have ever endured. A mess from start to finish, and no closer to reality than Ru Paul's Drag Race.
Here's a real P40 doing something that actually happened:
P40? Is that a nose wheel?
