Picture of the day

[grelmar]

I was poking fun at Russian propaganda. They probably suffered 90% casualties and just lied about it. Putin seems to repeating the tried and true tactic of the motherland … attrition at the expense of Human Resources.

Fair enough.

"The first casualty of war, is the truth."

I've been taking pretty much all the info coming out of Ukraine with heaping doses of salt, whether it comes from The Russians or Ukrainians. Both sides have a vested interest in fudging the numbers. Rumor is, that the Captain of the Moskva followed the ancient tradition, or possibly died in the initial explosions. Possibly as many as 450 crew are "missing."

It's a helluva blow to their Navy, not just in terms of the material loss. Flagships are invariably prized assignments, and attract the best and most ambitious officers, Jr. officers, and crews. That's a more difficult hole to fill than the metal and guns of the ship itself.

 

[CV32]

Anyone know how thick the large the 16 missile tubes are. Must be easy to ignite if those tubes don't have any armor.

The wings are folded before launch, as you can see in the photo below, but the missile in the tube -- the P-1000 Vulkan (NATO SS-N-12 Sandbox Mod 2) - has a wing span of 2.6 meters.

The tubes are not armoured (although the missiles inside are), and worse, the missiles contain thousands of kilograms of kerosene for their turbojet engines.

 

[Tikka223]

That’s an interesting point right there. Never really thought of it from a talent loss perspective.

Anyone have any links to what might have actually happened?

 

[XRCD011]

450 "missing" in one go, more then the Kursk at 118. Good shooting there Ukrainian Neptun battery.

 

[diopter]

Fair enough.

"The first casualty of war, is the truth."

I've been taking pretty much all the info coming out of Ukraine with heaping doses of salt, whether it comes from The Russians or Ukrainians. Both sides have a vested interest in fudging the numbers. Rumor is, that the Captain of the Moskva followed the ancient tradition, or possibly died in the initial explosions. Possibly as many as 450 crew are "missing."

It's a helluva blow to their Navy, not just in terms of the material loss. Flagships are invariably prized assignments, and attract the best and most ambitious officers, Jr. officers, and crews. That's a more difficult hole to fill than the metal and guns of the ship itself.

Total; Compliment according to Wiki for Slava Class.
Complement 485 (66 Off, 419 WO/Enl),[1] alternate information 476-529 (84 Off, 75 WO, 370 Enl)[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava-class_cruiser

 

[grelmar]

That’s an interesting point right there. Never really thought of it from a talent loss perspective.

Anyone have any links to what might have actually happened?

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/analysis-chain-of-negligence-caused-the-loss-of-the-moskva-cruiser/

Some interesting analysis, but they admit it's based on a lot of speculation, and vague/contradictory reports from various sources. The figure of number of lost sailors they're quoting is 240, based on a video the Russian military released of the fleet admiral inspecting a formation of the survivors.

The problem is, that video is highly suspect, and might be an old video from something entirely unrelated.

The Moskva was their primary air defense ship in the Black Sea, which makes everything much harder for the Russians. The Turks have closed the Turkish Straights to all military naval traffic, so even though Russia has other Slava class vessels, it can't actually get any of them into the Black Sea. That means that not only does the remaining Russian Navy assets have to contend with a missile system they weren't aware was even operational yet, but the best ship they had to deal with shore to ship missile attacks, was the first one sunk by those missiles.

So, now, just when they need their Black Sea fleet to provide shore bombardment support, as well as logistical support moving supplies and troops up and down the coast for their new re-jigged southern offensive, they've had to move all the remaining ships out of the assumed reach of the Neptune missiles.

In and of itself, not a game changer, but it's like going into overtime with your best player in the box on a 5 minute major.

 

[AGB-1]

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=76128

 

[Dark Alley Dan]

Double tap - ignore this post...

 

[Dark Alley Dan]

Was a time the Russian Navy was a simpler thing. Riverine gunboats, WW2:

Additional info here: http://wio.ru/fleet/ww2armorb.htm

 

[Rob]

 

[Tikka223]

Can’t help but wonder how many of today’s soldiers’ grandfathers fought together vs the Germans. I also wonder what those grandfathers would say about today’s conflict.

 

[grelmar]

View attachment 581748

Can’t help but wonder how many of today’s soldiers’ grandfathers fought together vs the Germans. I also wonder what those grandfathers would say about today’s conflict.

Ukrainians fought on both sides, and also on "no one's side but their own", during WWII. After the Holodomor, many Ukrainians viewed the Germans as liberating them from the Russians (Soviets). By the end of the war, a large % of Ukrainians were just done with everyone "not Ukrainian," but got stuck with the Soviets (Russians).

The current conflict is doing a good job of teaching them to trust no one, all over again.

 

[Tikka223]

Ukrainians fought on both sides, and also on "no one's side but their own", during WWII. After the Holodomor, many Ukrainians viewed the Germans as liberating them from the Russians (Soviets). By the end of the war, a large % of Ukrainians were just done with everyone "not Ukrainian," but got stuck with the Soviets (Russians).

The current conflict is doing a good job of teaching them to trust no one, all over again.

Couldn’t agree more. The Holodomor is a very forgotten part of history in this part of the world. At the start of the current conflict I seriously wondered if the average Ukrainian fighting aged man was willing to risk his life his country’s government (assuming the Russians would simply install a puppet and carry on a usual). Wow was I ever mistaken. History is alive and well over there and they sure are fighting.

 

[grelmar]

The HE-70 "Blitz". A very sleak, zoomie "civilian transport" from the early 30's. Slightly less sleak, still quite zoomie, kitted out with a rear facing defensive gun, some radio equipment, and a bomb bay, as a fast, long range reconnaissance aircraft/light bomber.

Early in the war it could out-run, and out-distance, almost any fighter it came across. But the lack of realistic defensive armament made it "not a favorite" (*ahem*) of Luftwaffe pilots.

Specs taken from Wikipedia (with a few grains of salt - there were a number of different variants, with different specs)

General characteristics

Crew: three (pilot, radio operator and gunner)
Length: 11.7 m (38 ft 5 in)
Wingspan: 14.8 m (48 ft 7 in)
Height: 3.1 m (10 ft 2 in)
Wing area: 36.5 m2 (393 sq ft)
Empty weight: 2,360 kg (5,203 lb)
Gross weight: 3,386 kg (7,465 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 3,500 kg (7,716 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × BMW VI 7.3 Z V-12 liquid-cooled piston engine, 550 kW (740 hp)
Propellers: 2-bladed variable-pitch metal propeller


Performance

Maximum speed: 360 km/h (220 mph, 190 kn) at sea level
Cruise speed: 295 km/h (183 mph, 159 kn)
Range: 1,820 km (1,130 mi, 980 nmi)
Service ceiling: 6,000 m (20,000 ft)
Time to altitude:
1,000 m (3,281 ft) in 2 minutes 30 seconds
4,000 m (13,123 ft) in 15 minutes


Armament

Guns: 1 × 7.92 mm (0.312 in) MG 15 machine gun in the rear cockpit
Bombs: 6 × 50 kg (110 lb) or 24 x 10 kg (22 lb) bombs internally

 

[zupermann]

Couldn’t agree more. The Holodomor is a very forgotten part of history in this part of the world. At the start of the current conflict I seriously wondered if the average Ukrainian fighting aged man was willing to risk his life his country’s government (assuming the Russians would simply install a puppet and carry on a usual). Wow was I ever mistaken. History is alive and well over there and they sure are fighting.

It took the Red Army well into the 1950's to eliminate the last remnants of Nationalist Ukrainians/anti Soviet partisans. Western intelligence was still picking up radio transmissions on the old German frequencies. They must have still thought the Wehrmacht was still fighting somewhere.

 

[diopter]

Mitsubishi G4M1 "Betty" fly low through anti-aircraft fire during a torpedo attack on U.S. Navy ships maneuvering between Guadalcanal and Tulagi in the morning of 8 August 1942. Of 23 attacking bombers, 17 were shot down, and one later crashed. The plane on the left at extreme low-level was flown by Jun Takahashi, who survive the war. Source Wikimedia Commons, U.S. Naval History and Heritage Command Photograph.

The ship faintly visible in the center is the Australian light cruiser HMAS Hobart (D63). Guadalcanal is in the distance.

A Japanese aircraft burns on the water after it was shot down by anti-aircraft fire during an attack on U.S. transports between Guadalcanal and Tulagi, 7-8 August 1942. Guadalcanal is in the background, with the heights above Cape Esperance at the right. Collection of Admiral Richmond K. Turner, USN. U.S. Naval History and Heritage Command Photograph.

 

[Dark Alley Dan]

Takahashi san was flying low enough to bring home fish in the cowlings. That's quite something.

 

[bjmurata]

His buddy following him appears to be pretty good at hugging the waves as well!

 

[Dark Alley Dan]

Morimoto see, Morimoto do. Damned impressive flying. I guess imminent death would give one the necessary focus to do something like this.

Mitsubishi's G4 was a very capable aircraft that had faults designed into it. Absence of armour plating allowed it to have exceptional range, but made it exceedingly vulnerable.

Very clean lines. Might have made a decent airliner had things happened differently. Wikipedia says the IJN operated the G6M1 as a transport.

 

[x westie]

Isoroku Yamamoto ,,Admiral of the Imperial Japanese Navy was flying in a Mitsubishi G4M “ Betty “ bomber when he was ambushed and shot down on Bougainville Island ,Papua New Guinea , (Operation Vengeance), April 18 1943, by US Army Airforce P38 fighters , who flew a 1000 mile flight , 600 miles to the intercept ,avoiding radar and Japanese personnel stationed in the Solomon Islands , 400 miles return flight