- Location
- big sky country
piston vrs gas ar
- Thread starter cormann2
- Start date
I think everyone is missing the point. The DI system is good. Some of the new high quality piston systems in the AR platform offer improvements. Are they necessary for a civilian shooter with 5 round mags, probably not. Are they worth the extra price, debatable (If you want the cheapest go ahead and get it).
Back to my original point...if the AR Piston's were so bad then the US Marines would not be having the success that they are with the HK 416 IAR. They are buying more of them. These guns have been run hard and hot in an extensive testing. The findings are that a DI AR is not capable of performing as well as the IAR has, on a number of levels.
If you don't have a lot of money to spend or are worried about spare parts please cling to you DI AR, their great guns. Trying to defend the system by saying it's better than some of the quality AR Piston systems...in terms of operating performance isn't holding water anymore.
Last year several major Quebec Police Services held their own carbine trial. Guess what, no big surprise, the HK 416 outperformed all other candidates including...everyone hold you fury....Colt Canada guns. The findings are not saying that the Colt Canada guns are bad, quite the opposite, they are great. The Piston driven HK 416 was just better. How much, debatable...worth the extra money...debatable.
There are users (sport / civilian included) that are not concerned about price and willing to pay more for performance that they may never truly take advantage of...not everyone buys on price alone.
Rich
Back to my original point...if the AR Piston's were so bad then the US Marines would not be having the success that they are with the HK 416 IAR. They are buying more of them. These guns have been run hard and hot in an extensive testing. The findings are that a DI AR is not capable of performing as well as the IAR has, on a number of levels.
If you don't have a lot of money to spend or are worried about spare parts please cling to you DI AR, their great guns. Trying to defend the system by saying it's better than some of the quality AR Piston systems...in terms of operating performance isn't holding water anymore.
Last year several major Quebec Police Services held their own carbine trial. Guess what, no big surprise, the HK 416 outperformed all other candidates including...everyone hold you fury....Colt Canada guns. The findings are not saying that the Colt Canada guns are bad, quite the opposite, they are great. The Piston driven HK 416 was just better. How much, debatable...worth the extra money...debatable.
There are users (sport / civilian included) that are not concerned about price and willing to pay more for performance that they may never truly take advantage of...not everyone buys on price alone.
Rich
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
So basically buy which ever one you want, or buy both, or buy many of both, and shoot them.
Worry about where your rounds are hitting relative to your aim and not what mechanism is taping high pressure gas and cycling your bolt.
Is that about it?
Starscream
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Why is the HK416 even entering the discussion?
One, we can't get the 416...we can only get the MR223.
Two...he asked about the Stag 8L piston system.....
416 uppers are available, if you got 5 grand you can get them..brought in the country and for less than than that at times, used under 4000grand...
There is a guy selling his for $7000 on the EE right now!
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Starscream
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
And point #2 still stands... He said his friend was going to spend roughly $2000. For the whole rifle. A lefted handed whole rifle, the Stag 8L (does HK produce left handed uppers?)
It's like saying, "Is there a practical difference between a Hyundai Tuscon and a KIA Rondo," and then you guys saying, "Buy the the Corvette ZR1, it's better."
If you are planning on running thousands of rds through a rifle and taking several carbine courses the MR223 would be a great bet, it is a tank and will run forever it seems..Great Rifle, the 416 configurations that are up here are more collector guns but they are not rare anymore and are able to bought for under 5gs very easily now..And you only ca get an authentic 416 upper, lowers are a lot harder...expensive, but that will change in time as well..
Eugene Stoner who designed the AR15 was aware of pistons to run weapons, and decided on direct impingement. I'm certainly not as smart as Eugene Stoner when it comes to weapon designs, so I will simply have to trust to his wisdom....same way I trust to John Browning's wisdom on the 1911 pistol, and Garand's wisdom on his rifle.
I just don't have any need to change my direct gas impingement rifles. If it works (mine do) I don't feel the need to fix, or change it. A friend of mine has a piston rifle, and likes it. I think it is much the same as arguing over Ford or Chevy trucks. Regardless of which truck or rifle you own, if it works, why get all worked up over it? Don't fix it if it works.
I just don't have any need to change my direct gas impingement rifles. If it works (mine do) I don't feel the need to fix, or change it. A friend of mine has a piston rifle, and likes it. I think it is much the same as arguing over Ford or Chevy trucks. Regardless of which truck or rifle you own, if it works, why get all worked up over it? Don't fix it if it works.
no one,
You and legions of posters always come back to the "If it isn't broke don't fix it" non-sense. A few posters then defend the DI as so incredible it never needs changing.
Whatever happened to advancement? This isn't a ford or chev argument. It's moving to a more capable, updated and enhanced performance weapon. Based on your logic, a bolt action gun launches bullets, why ever change to a semi-auto, why advance a bullet launcher? Why the need?
Rich
You and legions of posters always come back to the "If it isn't broke don't fix it" non-sense. A few posters then defend the DI as so incredible it never needs changing.
Whatever happened to advancement? This isn't a ford or chev argument. It's moving to a more capable, updated and enhanced performance weapon. Based on your logic, a bolt action gun launches bullets, why ever change to a semi-auto, why advance a bullet launcher? Why the need?
Rich
I agree with Master MC, and would like to add the other ignored problem is the unlocking of the bolt. Direct Impingement directs gasses foreward to push fwd on the bolt simultaneous to the rearward push on the bolt carrier. Pistons ripping the bolt from the barrel extension will eventually damage the locking lugs. I have one and use it, but know the drawbacks.
- Location
- British Columbia
beating a dead horse!
piston versus DI... its like debating religion- you are never going to convince the other side of your arguments.
FOR PEOPLE LOOKING FOR WHAT CAMP TO BUY INTO(what this thread was actually about)-
I personally in the past and with my recent purchases have ALWAYS bought DI. The merits have been stated over and over by all the other posters from the DI camp- no need to run them down again. The gentleman I quoted has some of the better points for a new buyer in my opinion. such as fouling- its a matter of where, not if... the same gases are exchanged- its a matter of where they are channeled. The heating issue is also a concern if you are going to be running courses or dumping many rounds through.( not as important for the total rec shooter that may put thru 2x, 3x, or 4x, 5 round mags in a particular shooting time. I could go on and on.. but like I said, others have significantly covered the merits.
My advise for first time buyers:
do your homework, don't read these forums and take it as the "be all, end all" of advise. Go to the ranges, go to the stores (not 1, as many as you can) get REAL feedback!
-What people don't understand when they read posting on forums is- what is the persons REAL credentials? - just cause they say they have something , do something, or have found whatever result - DOES NOT make it true. The people that scream the loudest don't know best, they are just the loudest.
-Some people who post are sponsored, or have connections to a particular store, brand, etc - it is in their best interest/contract to "sell you" on the concept or product paying their way. Caveat Emptor- let the buyer beware! once again do your own homework and form an opinion.
-Outdated information. when looking on forums, check the date of the post... when you search something it brings up everything. As people have posted- things change in the industry. What may have been an issue with a product 2 years ago and resulted in a bad review and then band-wagoners jumping all over it may have been fixed a month after that post... the local users and stores would be a better representation of what is up to date real info/feedback. Just because there was an issue 40+ years ago in the 60's doesn't mean that it is reflected today's market and equipment. A truly educated person in firearms and history will be able to tell you that issues were more to do with lack of procedure and "beliefs" than failure in general. promoters and pushers of a rival product with inflate and promote that "failure" with their twist in order to "prove" to all that their system is a better option. problem with doing an experiment like that is ALL the variables must be kept the same... changing materials, conditions, procedure- will change the results, and usually in their favor.
When it comes down to it,
-go with what feels right for you, not what someone told you to get. I would be more than happy to allow a new user (in the right circumstances) to attend a range day to feel the difference and see the workings of any of my firearms, as I am sure most guys on here would.
-go with what fits best into YOUR budget, the most expensive kit isn't necessarily the best for your needs/wants. After all, the "gun" is just the start of the shopping list- what about ammo, what about optics, what about supplies(cleaning, shooting, safety) etc etc etc... don't be one of those people that go out and drop the bundle on something fancy - just cause you were told to - and then it has to sit in your closet for months till you can afford to actually use it. that's a true shame no matter what you choose to acquire.
cheers all , and see you at the range.
piston versus DI... its like debating religion- you are never going to convince the other side of your arguments.
FOR PEOPLE LOOKING FOR WHAT CAMP TO BUY INTO(what this thread was actually about)-
I personally in the past and with my recent purchases have ALWAYS bought DI. The merits have been stated over and over by all the other posters from the DI camp- no need to run them down again. The gentleman I quoted has some of the better points for a new buyer in my opinion. such as fouling- its a matter of where, not if... the same gases are exchanged- its a matter of where they are channeled. The heating issue is also a concern if you are going to be running courses or dumping many rounds through.( not as important for the total rec shooter that may put thru 2x, 3x, or 4x, 5 round mags in a particular shooting time. I could go on and on.. but like I said, others have significantly covered the merits.
My advise for first time buyers:
do your homework, don't read these forums and take it as the "be all, end all" of advise. Go to the ranges, go to the stores (not 1, as many as you can) get REAL feedback!
-What people don't understand when they read posting on forums is- what is the persons REAL credentials? - just cause they say they have something , do something, or have found whatever result - DOES NOT make it true. The people that scream the loudest don't know best, they are just the loudest.
-Some people who post are sponsored, or have connections to a particular store, brand, etc - it is in their best interest/contract to "sell you" on the concept or product paying their way. Caveat Emptor- let the buyer beware! once again do your own homework and form an opinion.
-Outdated information. when looking on forums, check the date of the post... when you search something it brings up everything. As people have posted- things change in the industry. What may have been an issue with a product 2 years ago and resulted in a bad review and then band-wagoners jumping all over it may have been fixed a month after that post... the local users and stores would be a better representation of what is up to date real info/feedback. Just because there was an issue 40+ years ago in the 60's doesn't mean that it is reflected today's market and equipment. A truly educated person in firearms and history will be able to tell you that issues were more to do with lack of procedure and "beliefs" than failure in general. promoters and pushers of a rival product with inflate and promote that "failure" with their twist in order to "prove" to all that their system is a better option. problem with doing an experiment like that is ALL the variables must be kept the same... changing materials, conditions, procedure- will change the results, and usually in their favor.
When it comes down to it,
-go with what feels right for you, not what someone told you to get. I would be more than happy to allow a new user (in the right circumstances) to attend a range day to feel the difference and see the workings of any of my firearms, as I am sure most guys on here would.
-go with what fits best into YOUR budget, the most expensive kit isn't necessarily the best for your needs/wants. After all, the "gun" is just the start of the shopping list- what about ammo, what about optics, what about supplies(cleaning, shooting, safety) etc etc etc... don't be one of those people that go out and drop the bundle on something fancy - just cause you were told to - and then it has to sit in your closet for months till you can afford to actually use it. that's a true shame no matter what you choose to acquire.
cheers all , and see you at the range.
