POL/PAL for antiques?

[762mm]

Following up on the scenario David already outlined here is another angle. You sell your lettered antique to a guy you dont know, he may sell it and who knows how much it moves around. At some point it gets used in a violent incident and gets recoverd by the police, you are the only person they can tie to it, now the gangs and guns unit is asking you to voluntarily come in for questioning, are you going to refuse? They might ask to see your registered firearms, just to be sure you dont have the other gun that was used in the violent incident but was not recovered. I can think of many remotely plausible reasons why you do not want your name on record for a firearm that can travel freely from hand to hand.

Ok... but you're forgetting one thing: the prosecution (police) has to PROVE reasonable grounds in order to execute any search warrant or to bring you in for questioning. We're not in 1940's Germany! (yet...?)

Due to the nonrestrictive nature of the firearms act in matters of antiques, the law is absolutely on your side. You don't have to know who you sold the antique to, you don't have to take their name down and you surely won't be accused of anything if such a gun is used in a crime, unless someone sees YOU holding it during the crime in question. Why so? Because, unless YOU commit the crime and there are witnesses around, there is no direct or legal chain of possession tying you to the antique firearm in question. End of story.

As for the CFO checking out your collection, they may do that as they please anyway, anytime... as long as you have REGISTERED firearms that NEED registration. If not, then you can tell them to go fly a kite.


On a final note... I find that a lot of people on these forums like to speculate doom and gloom, but very few actually know the legal side of things... but then again, I guess that if everyone knew everything about the law, lawyers would be out of a their precious jobs, lol!

Personally, I don't give a flying f*ck if "the man" has my name on file for EVERY antique in the country. So what?

 

[dingus]

Following up on the scenario David already outlined here is another angle. You sell your lettered antique to a guy you dont know, he may sell it and who knows how much it moves around. At some point it gets used in a violent incident and gets recoverd by the police, you are the only person they can tie to it, now the gangs and guns unit is asking you to voluntarily come in for questioning, are you going to refuse? They might ask to see your registered firearms, just to be sure you dont have the other gun that was used in the violent incident but was not recovered. I can think of many remotely plausible reasons why you do not want your name on record for a firearm that can travel freely from hand to hand.

Thats Fair enough.
BUT the old way of collecting letters is no Diffrent really than the new way.
I understand your against all RCMP Antique letters and your right really but to import the guns its been easyer with the letters.
With the old requests you have to make the Request and have it Emailed with a follow up copy in the Mail.
So they can check easy enough whos requesting the letters.
This is just a Hobby to me i buy more than i sell so im no good at buisness like a crack whore selling crack

But the old letters system give them your name phone # email addy mailing address i figger any decent cop could check if you had a Firearms licence.

This new way is not gona work on any guns that dont have and antique FRT # which ALOT dont.

I vote for makeing our Own letters useing fladermans guide ect to show customs the guns pre 1898.
That should be all we ever need.
It wasnt my Idea but its a smart idea really and Customs knows more now which guns are antique now than ever.

 

[john@]

I'm not actually against the letters, just too lazy to get one so far.
If I were importing I'd consider getting one.

I smell a business opportunity for someone to act as a proxy to order letters anonymously. Guess it depends on how many paranoid people out there.

 

[Smokepole]

Thats Fair enough.
BUT the old way of collecting letters is no Diffrent really than the new way.
I understand your against all RCMP Antique letters and your right really but to import the guns its been easyer with the letters.
(snip)
I vote for makeing our Own letters useing fladermans guide ect to show customs the guns pre 1898.
That should be all we ever need.
It wasnt my Idea but its a smart idea really and Customs knows more now which guns are antique now than ever.

X2 - good idea.

 

[david doyle]

Your right Dingus. Making your own letters/declaration is not only easier it is just as effective.

My letters go on the outside of the package and I have had the same percentage of opened/inspected packages with my letters as with the CFC letters. Yep package not opened, declaration read, duty assigned. Nice to change the scenario from asking the CFC techs for permission to call an antique an antique to informing customs you are exercising your privilage to import a new toy.
Not to derail john's bussiness but it takes about 30 seconds to type up a customs declaration. Which is much shorter then what it would take customs to sort out why a gun was accompanied by a RCMP letter addressed to a diffrent person then the package containing the antique.

has to PROVE reasonable grounds in order to execute any search warrant or to bring you in for questioning. We're not in 1940's Germany! (yet...?)

Reasonable grounds is that (in john@'s scenario) you have a connection to a weapon used in a violent crime! Seems pretty reasonable to me that if an officer finds an antique registered in your name at a crime scene that they would include you in the scope of thier investigation. Depending on how the investigation goes it might be a nice opportunity to help put some scum bag behind bars or it might be the start of a very long, very expensive and very stressfull few years. While the law may be "on your side" the law is also on the side of investigators and victims.

Bottom line is that even if there is no down side to voluntarily registering antiques I fail to see the upside to it. lets give it a year and see who can say 'I toad a so' . I hope it is not me.

 

[tonyg]

that is the whole thing in one line. There is no upside to voluntary registration...it can only go downhill from there

 

[dingus]

Well im gona try the Home made letter for importing a few see how it works.
David told me about this Idea along time ago but i am to Lazy or was to lazy to do it.
I should give it a try again tho.
It did work AOK on that little Colt newline i bought.

 

[DEZ]

Every one I sell an antique to wants a letter even for a Webley MKI obvious antique the only ones I have letters for are ones I have imported. but this is nothing new they asked for my pal way back you know just so they had all my info to send me out the letter They have always kept records I got an antique status letter from them for my S&W 32-44 target by just giving them the serial # as it had been de-registered when the antique class first came in years ago they still had it on file and knew who had de-registered it at the time.It is are own falt we have been asking for soo many letters it has alerted them as to how much trading in antiques is out there .

 

[mooncoon]

There is a flaw in the home made letter method; Customs only recognizes certain kinds of letters as having valid information. Letters from the RCMP are one and in the past and perhaps now, a letter from a bona fide antique dealer was considered valid. In the Customs Act, the antique dealer did not seem to have to be one who deals in firearms. The opinion of long time collectors counts for nothing. If you are putting your own information in the shipment, I would suggest using the title page from Flayderman plus the page with the particular gun on it plus xeroxs of the appropriate statutes describing it as antique and as exempt from registration.
I have tried using such xerox sheets twice; I don't think Canada Customs thought they were real and only let the gun in because they thought that it could not be made to fire, and in the case of the local RCMP office, they could not find the particular sections of the criminal code and in both cases the guns were eventually handed over on the basis of best guess.

cheers mooncoon

 

[Win 38-55]

Here's something that does not make sense to me. For several years at least, when you request an antique letter, they needed at least your name and address so they would know where to send it. The moment they had your name, within seconds, they could call up your PAL on their computer. So it does not make a lot of sense to me as to why they would ask for your PAL.

Regardless, as I suggested earlier, I'm going to make my own letter from now on that includes two things: a) the short paragraph that defines what an antique is and, b) a quote from a reliable reference (including a scan of the paragraph in the reference book) that shows that my antique actually complies with the antique requirements spelled out in the first paragraph. If I actually have a factory letter from S&W, I would scan that in as well and print it on the back of the letter.

Edit: I have used scanned in references for three antique (by US law) Winchesters I shipped to the USA. (by the way, all three rifles were advertised on CGN first and, when they didn't sell after three weeks, were shipped to the USA). I scanned in the appropriate page from Madis' book, which is a published source. The US customs accepted the rifles all three times without a question. Mooncoon's idea of using a published source is the way to go.

Bottom LIne: no more requests for an antique letter from the RCMP

 

[dingus]

Here's something that does not make sense to me. For several years at least, when you request an antique letter, they needed at least your name and address so they would know where to send it. The moment they had your name, within seconds, they could call up your PAL on their computer. So it does not make a lot of sense to me as to why they would ask for your PAL.

Regardless, as I suggested earlier, I'm going to make my own letter from now on that includes two things: a) the short paragraph that defines what an antique is and, b) a quote from a reliable reference (including a scan of the paragraph in the reference book) that shows that my antique actually complies with the antique requirements spelled out in the first paragraph. If I actually have a factory letter from S&W, I would scan that in as well and print it on the back of the letter.

Bottom LIne: no more requests for an antique letter from the RCMP

Yes im getting so i agree with this thinking.
a Webley with a Antique FRT # include that Number and a photocopy from a well know book showing what a Webley MKI or MKII looks like.
All i can say is im glad for the modern printer scanners we all have now.
Mine was like $40 and its still printing on its frist ink Cartridge

 

[david doyle]

There is a flaw in the home made letter method; Customs only recognizes certain kinds of letters as having valid information. Letters from the RCMP are one and in the past and perhaps now, a letter from a bona fide antique dealer was considered valid. In the Customs Act, the antique dealer did not seem to have to be one who deals in firearms. The opinion of long time collectors counts for nothing.

I have tried using such xerox sheets twice; I don't think Canada Customs thought they were real and only let the gun in because they thought that it could not be made to fire, and in the case of the local RCMP office, they could not find the particular sections of the criminal code and in both cases the guns were eventually handed over on the basis of best guess.

I am not a cop or a 'bonafide' dealer and Customs feels I am just as capable as either of the above to write down where to find a proof mark/makers name etc etc. And they also feel I am capable of making a declaration which if it proves false or misleading will result in my paying a very stiff price.

So your saying you think customs and the RCMP released firearms based on Guesses and assumptions? so guesses are OK but statement of facts is not? Sorry bud but your way out to lunch on this one.

Here is an example:

To whom it may concern:

Please find enclosed a mdl 1892 French Ordannance revolver. Serial # **************, manufacture date of 189*. Antique status is indicated by presence of * prefix and S189* manufacture date found on top of the barrel.

Should you require anyfurther information please do not hesitate to contact me :

**********

Here is another one:

Please find enclosed a belgian revolver Serial # 888888, chambered in 455 webley, manufactured previous to 1893 as indicated by pre 1893 proof marks found on cylinder and frame.

Shoudl you require any further information please contact at :

888888888888888
************
With best regards
*********

Another:

Please find enclosed an Antique mkI webley revolver serial #888888. Antique status is indicated by FRT#888888888.

SHould you require anyfurther information please do not hesitate to contact........

That is all that is required. CBSA agents (specifically the weapons branch) are charged with a responsibility which they are more then
capable of upholding.

 

[mooncoon]

So your saying you think customs and the RCMP released firearms based on Guesses and assumptions? so guesses are OK but statement of facts is not? Sorry bud but your way out to lunch on this one.

I speak from personal experience. It is not what I think, it is what my experience with Canada Customs and with the RCMP has been. The letter of validation by an antique dealer is found in the Customs Act although my copy may be out of date by now.

cheers mooncoon

 

[Killer Kanuck]

I`ve printed the FRT entry for models that had their entire run pre-1898, and used that as my "Customs declaration". Worked everytime except once, and I think that was just a new employee at Border Services (wanted my ATT for the shipment???????) - only took a day or 2 to sort out.

 

[Smokepole]

I`ve printed the FRT entry for models that had their entire run pre-1898, and used that as my "Customs declaration".

Me too. And any antique percussion gun just gets a glance to be sure it is an old percussion. I've had several inspected and the protective packaging had been torn open only a bit, around the lock area.

 

[Killer Kanuck]

Hell, I don't think they even looked at the Nepalese Snider I have coming from IMA. I didn't send them any paperwork, and the tracking number is showing Customs received it at 10:00am, and it was released at 1:15pm the same day.

 

[david doyle]

I speak from personal experience. It is not what I think, it is what my experience with Canada Customs and with the RCMP has been

It is what you think. Re rear your post. You made assumptions about why the GRC/customs guys did what they did. I am saying it is not for you to assign imagined reasons to other's actions. You clearly Say that they GUESSED and ASSUMED I am saying they are smarter then that and if they are not I am sure they appreciate you making them sound like morons running around higgly piggly flipping coins about what to let into the country.

I am allowed to import 2 tins of tobacoo and a bottle of booze duty free at the border. I Don't need an RCMP letter to tell the border guy that. I am also allowed to import tractors and the CBSA does not need the RCMP to tell them the tractor needs to be sprayed for weeds first.
Point being the CBSA knows thier bussiness. If they have a question about a firearm thier first stop is'nt the rcmp. It is thier own weapons experts. Why if the CBSA has a weapons branch would anyone choose to deal with a THIRD party?

 

[mooncoon]

It is what you think. Re rear your post. You made assumptions about why the GRC/customs guys did what they did. I am saying it is not for you to assign imagined reasons to other's actions.

Perhaps I can be more clear; in the case of the RCMP, I and the gun owner gave the police a xerox of the appropriate sections. They went in the back for 20 minutes or so and came back and said "we cannot find those sections of law", slightly paraphrased). Several days later when the particular officer came back on duty, the owner got a phone call that basically said "come and pick up your gun"
In the case of Customs, the gun was mine and was a 200 year old flintlock pistol in very poor repair. I gave them a xerox of the regs and one fellow went in the back for a while and finally returned and the senior of the two individuals (I presume) said "if it was a long gun we would not hesitate. Because it is a handgun we will let you take it because we don't think it can be made to fire" There was no indication that they believed the xerox information was completely valid and basically implied that it was their judgement call to allow the gun in because it could not be made to fire.
At least they were much better than another gifted individual who I spoke to over the phone and who claimed to be able to identify rifled barrel blanks intended for military use presumably on the basis of their rifling characteristics. This individual claimed to be very familiar with firearms and implied that he could distinguish a .30 cal rifled tube intended for military use from a .30 cal rifled tube (ie uncontoured, unthreaded rifled blank) intended for sporting use.

cheers mooncoon

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Ask for a letter?

I have often wondered why anyone would request an "antique letter" from the RCMP. Courting disaster I think. Antiques require no PAL...no letter and no registration. If Canada Customs had any clue they would not need a letter as they would just do a short research and pass it through. It doesn't take and Einstein to make that decision. What is needed here is a reality check at CC and some new policies.

I've always felt that if the answer is feared, don't ask the question!

The same logic applies to asking for a letter.

 

[BrotherRockeye]

I'm thinkin the only real reason anyone would "need" an RCMP letter to verify antique status is in the event you run into an RCMP officer in the field.
Seeing their own letterhead may expedite matters in getting you and your antique iron on your way.
But I'm just theorizing...