Polish Cavalry

[Monty]

...
As the Poles say: "Nicedriveway and brown doughnuts to all"

If someone wants a translation of that, just ask!!!

LI

Asking...

 

[savagefan]

And the reason that Britain and France declared war on Germany was........

 

[TheTooner]

The RAF didn't rate Polish pilots very much at all when they first got them. They weren't even going to let any of them fly fighters, initially, but wanted to retrain them all as bomber aircrew.

The Polish squadrons were held back from the Battle of Britain initially because the RAF high command thought they needed more training. This was partly because the Poles wanted to use tactics they had been taught in the Polish Air Force, which were different from the RAF's. Actual combat convinced the RAF to adopt the looser formations and closer engagement ranges the Poles advocated.

Despite the late start, the Polish units did do very well on the scores, and LightInfantry is correct, 303 Squadron was the highest scoring RAF fighter squadron in the Battle of Britain. By the end of that campaign, the RAF high command had quite changed their collective mind about the quality of the Polish pilots, and it was even admitted, officially, that without the number of kills made by the Poles, which was about 20% of the total in that campaign, the Battle of Britain would have been lost. Of course, if the rest the RAF had shot down many fewer German planes, that could have lost the battle just as well, but the point is, the Polish contribution to that victory was large, and if they hadn't got those extra pilots from Poland, they couldn't see where else they might have got enough bums on the seats of the fighter planes to win that battle.

It should not be a mystery why the Polish aircrew in the RAF were so good. The Polish Air Force was destroyed by the Germans in 1939, though not all on the ground and not so easily and quickly as German propaganda claimed. That process would have tended to leave only the better (and to some extent, luckier) pilots alive, and of those, few would escape Poland to join the Allies without demonstrating that they were highly motivated and resourceful individuals with great determination to fight the Germans.

 

[grouse]

"The Thousand Hour Day" by W. S Kuniczak while fictionalized is a very interesting account of the Nazi invasion of Poland. This is stirring stuff and probably contains enough actual history to be educational (the authors father was a comabtant) without being too nationalistic. I read this almost 20 years ago, it is now out of print but I just found several used copies on the net.

 

[savagefan]

Hey, genius. No swearing.



You sound just like a typical paranoid zenophobic Russian. Russians invented everything, they have the best soldiers, they're the best at everything, blah, blah, blah. And my personal favourite, that Poles are useless. However, Russians always forget that the Poles were the only nation to occupy the Russian capital. The Germans failed, the Mongols failed.

Cheers,
sparky

First off, I would never deny the contribution made by the Poles, Russian? hell My Uncle Phillip, Royal Scots Dragoon guards K.I.A Dunkirk fighting the rearguard whilst all the rest got out. Polish fighter pilots were very good but let us not forget that the vast majority of R.A.F. fighter pilots in the Battle Of Britain were upper and middle class English boys and pulled the same duty as anyone else. My aunt was a radio girl for R.A.F. fighter command and at 19 she was taking last requests from fighter pilots burning to death as they spiralled into the ground, talk about job-stress.
Pardon my initial #####iness on this topic but that war was as much a numbers game as anything else. People from many countries fought hard but in numbers of men and materiel it was the U.S.A. followed by Great Britain who contributed the most. The Russians whose contribution many of us seem to downplay suffered the greatest losses overall, "and I think to myself what a wonderful world"

 

[savagefan]

BTW it's xenophobic, which apparently describes your view of Russians. Happy new year all.

 

[Light Infantry]

Monty

Nice driveway actually refers to the toast that Poles give to one another and everyone else. It really is Nazdrowie (someone may come along and correct my spelling, since its been awhile that i have had to write in that language and as well, I tend to cross over into other Slavic languages and cross letters), wich means to your health or for your health. Somewhat akin to cheers. Brown doughnuts is actually, drobranocz, which all Poles say to each other at the close of the evening, which means good night.

"English" speaking people always botch it up and its become a quite humourous running gag. And no, Poles do not get offended by it, they actually laught the hardest about it!

The Tooner

Very logical! Never actually thought of it that way. Survival of the fittest, and only the best survived to make it to England. I think you could also add to your theory that those that survived, learned their lessons well, and became better for it. I think you could also say the same about those poor lads at Dunkirk. They learned the hard way and when they came back to the shores of France they knew what to expect and be better able to get to their objectives.

Savagefan

Very interesting family history you have! Your uncle done good! My point on the Brits (and the French) in declaring war was that it was a hollow promise. Neither nation (Poland included) could not come to the aid of each other and they didn't, because they were not prepared.

Slightly off-topic, but many historians believe that Britain sank quicklyafter 1918, because of the brain drain that occured in the trenches of WW1, were a whole generation of future leaders, teachers, corporate entrepeneurs, teachers etc were tragically decimated.

I would like to clarify your point on the RAF pilots though. I would assume that most pilots were of British origin, but as TheTooner alluded to, there just were not enough British pilots available. They drew heavily on the Poles but also quite a bit on the Czechs, the Americans (before they entered the war) and many other nationalities. I don't know what the actual numbers are, but I am safe to guess that other nationalities made a significant percentage of the RAF.

As for the Russians, it's not that I downplay their contribution, but rather they got what they deserved as far as I am concerned!

Quite honestly, if it wasn't for the Ribbentrop - Molotov Pact, i don't think Hitler would have accomplished what he did in the very early stages of the war. It allowed him to have a secure Eastern front while he pounded the crap out of everyone else.

The Russians killed more Russians that anyone else.

They do not get any pity from me or many others. Just mention the Katyn forest to any Pole. You will get one of two responses: tears, or tears with anger! We could really get into a discussion on that one! The cowards even tried to blame the Germans on that one. IIRC they Russians only apologized for that in the 1980's, even though the world knew wo was guilty before the war ended.


Happy New Year everyone!

LI

 

[savagefan]

Katyn, yes even the Nazis were disgusted. Hitler could easily have signed a pact with Britain/France and done the Russians instead. We all would have gained. Looking at inter-war Europe was much as it is today in all of the western nations except one, unfortunately our illustrious leaders get smug taking shots at Uncle Sam.

 

[donor]

as for polish lingo it goes like this:
nazdrowie is really 2 words-Na Zdrowie
dobranoc is long accepted marrige of 2 words -dobra noc or dobrej nocy

there is a lot of this kind of things in our lingo-those of You familliar with russian,ukrainian,czech and other slavic lingos know this

btw-its good that this kind of disscution is going on but what does it have to do with milsurlp rifles?

f_soldaten-if you keep doing this i'm gona have to send you not one but whole case of beer.cheers

 

[sparky]

First off, I would never deny the contribution made by the Poles, Russian? hell My Uncle Phillip, Royal Scots Dragoon guards K.I.A Dunkirk fighting the rearguard whilst all the rest got out. Polish fighter pilots were very good but let us not forget that the vast majority of R.A.F. fighter pilots in the Battle Of Britain were upper and middle class English boys and pulled the same duty as anyone else. My aunt was a radio girl for R.A.F. fighter command and at 19 she was taking last requests from fighter pilots burning to death as they spiralled into the ground, talk about job-stress.
Pardon my initial #####iness on this topic but that war was as much a numbers game as anything else. People from many countries fought hard but in numbers of men and materiel it was the U.S.A. followed by Great Britain who contributed the most. The Russians whose contribution many of us seem to downplay suffered the greatest losses overall, "and I think to myself what a wonderful world"

First off, you did downplay the contribution of the Poles.

Second: I never called you Russian, I said you came off like a particular type of Russian. Easily confused, at times, with the arrogant type of Anglophile you appear to be. BTW, my hat's off to your familial contributions to the war. I do give credit to the British that held off at Dunkirk, as well as the Poles, Belgians, etc. that held off elsewhere while the French fled with their baguettes and cheese across The Channel.

Third, yes, there were other nationalities that did fly:

One source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain):

The RAF recognises 2440 British and 510 overseas pilots who flew at least one authorised operational sortie with an eligible unit of the Royal Air Force or Fleet Air Arm during the period 10 July to 31 October 1940. This group includes 139 Poles, 98 New Zealanders, 86 Canadians, 84 Czechoslovakians, 29 Belgians, 21 Australians, 20 South Africans, 13 French, 10 Irish, 7 Americans, a Jamaican, a Palestine Jew and a Southern Rhodesian. 498 RAF pilots were killed during the Battle.

And a link to another source: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/roll.html

Fourth: the USA could contribute the volume of material that they did because of a huge industrial base, vast resources, and the fact that they were not under direct threat to attack, invasion, or large-scale sabotage.

Fifth: One point as regards to Britain's "large" contribution. They couldn't even staff their officer corps with enough of their own. They had to get a sizeable amount of officers from Canada, through the officer exchange program. That is, Canadian officers leading British troops. (Now, if only they did that with their high command, maybe Monty wouldn't have killed so many Brits, Canadians, and American Paratroopers.) Also, where do you think a lot of the British physical resources came from? Canada for one. Not a whole lot of forest in England is there, or massive metal deposits, or…..? I think you get my point? England was essentially strip-mined a long time ago. That’s why they needed to maintain an empire, a controlled source for resources. Heck, the paper that British money was printed on didn’t even come from their country. I cannot recall from where now, Burma or India I think. But I digress.

Sixth: Russians... I'm not even going to go there. I think it's been explained already.

Katyn, yes even the Nazis were disgusted. Hitler could easily have signed a pact with Britain/France and done the Russians instead. We all would have gained. Looking at inter-war Europe was much as it is today in all of the western nations except one, unfortunately our illustrious leaders get smug taking shots at Uncle Sam.

Hitler did try to form a pact (i.e. military alliance) with England. He felt that the British were their only real equivalent and they were of the same bloodlines (not wholly untrue), so should rule Europe and the world together. Fortunately, the British declined. The world would have been a much different place today if they did and not for the better. Patton had it right at the end of the war. After kicking the stuffing out of the Germans, rearm them under Allied command and then kick the stuffing out of the Russians. (But then, the world would have been a much different place today, and not necessarily for the better.) This is highly simplified, but I think my point is understood.

Savagefan, I think we're on the same side here, but just looking at it all from different perspectives.

Cheers,
sparky

 

[savagefan]

Nice post Sparky.

 

[Light Infantry]

So now that we are all friends again, I thought some of you may be interested in this site:

http://forum.axishistory.com/

I have posted it previously but thought it might be good to do it again.

It talks about the axis powers more so than the allies as well as discusses what the war was like in the occupied nations etc.

I find it really good reading because of the different view point and the truly international membership.

Enjoy!

Lookout, if you have trouble with some of the big words, let me know and I'll help you out!

LI

 

[Monty]

Hey, Sparky - the numbers I've found for Canadian pilots fighting in the Battle of Britain is 112. One of my best friend's dad flew a Spitfire Mk.1 in 74 Squadron. 74 Squadron not only fought in the Battle of Britain but also covered the evacuation fleet at Dunkirk.

 

[Light Infantry]

Not that I have done any exhaustive research, but it seems every source has slightly different numbers. Not sure why, but that is what I have found.

Monty

Is your Dad's friend still kicking? The stories he has must be fascinating.

I was at the Smithsonian about 3 years back, with one of my employees, nicknamed "Propeller Head". For good reason too; he is a walking encyclopedia, and has never been stumped when it comes to flying or space exploration, which is an amazing thing considering some of the people we deal with at work. Anyhow, he is explaining to me how the Smith screwed up in the restoration of the P51 Mustang they had on display. Something about only 3 rivets were used to hold something in place rahter than 4 or something like that (my eyes glaze over when he starts to roll). Up steps up an elderly gentlemen who politely interrupts us and he introduces himself as an ex pilot of the Mustang (not that particular one). 4 hours later we leave. Man, he had some incredible stories to tell us.

He did get smoked though, in, I believe October 44 and spent time in a POW camp.

LI

 

[sparky]

Hey, Sparky - the numbers I've found for Canadian pilots fighting in the Battle of Britain is 112. One of my best friend's dad flew a Spitfire Mk.1 in 74 Squadron. 74 Squadron not only fought in the Battle of Britain but also covered the evacuation fleet at Dunkirk.

Monty, you're probably right. I'm also sure that I read one source a long time ago that listed one Brazilian pilot that flew with the RAF as well, but I cannot find that source now. I'll bet the low number that's listed in that bit I borrowed from Wikepedia can be explained. Some Canadians may have been listed as British pilots, either by error or design. They may have been in the RAF before the war or had British/Scottish/Welsh/N. Irish ancestry (that is, dual citzenship - Canadian/British) and were recorded on the rolls as Brits. If you looked at the second source I pointed to, you'll see they say British, but not if they may have been from Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland; so, not impossible to be mistakenly called British. Also, Canadian officers serving in British units under the officer exchange program were, I believe, listed as British and not Canadian.

BTW, your dad's friend sounds like one remarkable fellow. I hope you had a chance to hear about his experiences.

Cheers,
sparky

 

[dangertree]

Sparky, I looked through the list to see the names of some of the pilots of the 125th Newfoundland Squadron, lo and behold, all listed as British, so I'd have to agree with you.

I guess Newfoundland was more 'British' than New Zealand in WW2?

 

[sparky]

Sparky, I looked through the list to see the names of some of the pilots of the 125th Newfoundland Squadron, lo and behold, all listed as British, so I'd have to agree with you.

I guess Newfoundland was more 'British' than New Zealand in WW2?

Newfoundland was not part of Canada, even though they were largely equipped, trained, and grouped with Canadians. I'm not too surprised that they are not listed specifically as Newfoundlanders though. Even though they wore Newfoundland shoulder flashes, much as Canadians, S.A., ANZACS, Poles, Czechs, French, and even Americans (at least flyers) did. I believe they were technically British in the end. Newfoundland did not join Canadian Confederation until 1949 (as you already know). They kept the right to maintain a Newfoundland Regiment. If I remember correctly, that's why there is no actual reserve army artillery regiment in that province, it was absorbed by the Royal Newfoundland Regiment, which is infantry. This would make it very unique, in that this is an infantry regiment with its own artillery pieces. (Those more expert in Canadian militaria and history can correct and/or expand on this.) [Dangertree corrected me on this point as you'll see below. Thanks.] So, anyway, until 1949, Newfoundland was technically part of Britain.

I wonder what we’ll discuss next in this thread about Polish Cavalry? ;o)

f_soldaten04 thank-you for being so patient with the digressions, especially mine.

Cheers,
sparky

 

[dangertree]

(sorry for the continued OT)

Sparky, I realized my mistake, Newfoundland didn't form the squadron till 41, so after the Battle of Britain. Prior to that they were simply integrated into the RAF. However, I didn't realize that Rhodesia, NZ, etc had raised squadrons prior the the BoB, so still not sure why Newfoundland didn't make the list. (well aware of Confederation date).

RNFLDR didn't integrate artillery assets/tasks of the 166th RCA, AFAIK it integrated it's members (as infantry) when the regiment was disbanded.

Dobra. Back to the Cavalry!

Sorry again for the OT.

 

[Light Infantry]

Back to the Cavalry!

I was racking my brain for awhile trying to remember this article. It was a good read, unforunately it was this fellow's obituary. If anyone has access to it, please post, otherwise, i'll wait until I'm back in the office, log in more securely, buy it and post it:

Polish army cavalryman settled on Quebec farm
By JAMES McCREADY

Special to The Globe and Mail

Monday, July 12, 2004, Page R7

Janusz Wiazowski was one of the lucky Polish officers who managed to get out of the country after its defeat by the Germans, and before the mass murder of thousands of his fellow officers by the Russians in the Katyn Forest in 1939.

The full text of this article has 1158 words.

 

[Gibbs505]

One point as regards to Britain's "large" contribution. They couldn't even staff their officer corps with enough of their own.

There is truth in that. FM Alan Brooke, the CIGS, was contionually writting in his private daries about the lacl of officer material and the dearth of good generals!!!