Polish Cavalry

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By WWII, New Zealand had status in the Empire/Commonwealth as a Dominion, while Newfoundland was still a colony. A colony could be pretty much self-governing but its people were still British, whereas the people of a Dominion would have their own nationality.

There is plenty of scope for confusing the nationality of Canadians enrolled in the RAF during that war. E.g. if you were British born but emigrated to Canada as a young child, you might grow up thinking yourself Canadian, or Canadian first, and you would probably have Canadian nationality by the time you went to the U.K. to enlist, but unless you were very insistent about being called Canadian, your place of birth in the U.K. would almost certainly get you labelled as British in the official records. (I was born and raised in Canada, and when I joined the British Army in 1983, I was officially considered Canadian, though I didn't realise until later that due to my parents nationality, I was, since birth, also a British citizen. If I had known about that when I enlisted, I could have declared myself as British and all my records would have just said I was British.)


Sparky's slur on Montgomery and on the British in general for being "unable to staff their officer corps" is ill-founded. There were plenty of worse generals and not many better. He was only human, and certainly not perfect, but he got his command appointments the same way most generals did - because his superiors thought at the time that he was the best, or sometimes least bad, choice available for the job at the time, and he kept them because he generally proved successfull. Of course there was some national prejudice amongst the old professional officer corps of the British services, just as there was bound to be a prejudice amongst the professionals against the all the Territorials and Reservists and war service volunteers, but actual results in combat counted, and lots of pre-war regulars found their ceiling very quickly and found themselves serving under non-regulars and even the occasional colonial, foreign, or Allied commander.

There is no evidence that there was a significant pool of Canadian talent for high command languishing underemployed in the Canadian Army. The Canadian Army was relatively small and very new, so there simply hadn't been time for its pool of officers to gain the experience of staff work and unit and formation command to start throwing up a lot of candidates for higher command.

At the junior leaders level (company and platoon commanders, platoon sergeants, corporals and lance corporals as section commanders and section 2i/c) they have to lead by example and move about more within their positions to communicate, which means they expose themselves to enemy fire more and suffer higher casualty rates per capita than ordinary soldiers. After a couple of years of war, Britain was further down the road to depletion of its stock of potential leaders. The Army found an excellent source of junior officers not so much from exchanges (trading a British platoon commander for a Canadian one doesn't fill a hole in a British battalion) as from a program called CanLoan.
Many junior officers from the Canadian Army were posted to British battalions under this scheme, which on the whole reported them to be very good at their jobs. But to fault the British for not being able to find enough British officers for their troops invites the criticism that Canada couldn't raise enough Canadian troops for our Army's officers to lead.
 
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TheTooner

I don't think that the lack of British officers had to do with the quality of these officers, it really only had to do with a LACK of them. nothing to do with quality.

As for Montgomery, he had no qualms about casually sacrificing men to reach an objective. He could have won many of his battles without the level of death he brought upon his men. Yes, he was successful in terms of batles won and objectives met, but that is more of a testimony to the troops and the sub-ordinate officers on the ground.
He was a stuck up, haughty and petty man, who against all odds was able to acheive the rank he did. It was based more on his political and social connections than his actual skills as a soldier. (Have I pissed anyone off yet!?:) ) He was more concerned about his personal agenda than his men.

Someone help me out here. If my memory serves me correctly, many "experts" actually consider a Canadian General to have been the best in WW2 (hey it may have been WW1, I don't recall). His name excapes me at the moment.

LI
 
Arthur Currie, in WWI, was a very fine general by any standards, and thus a great credit to Canada. I don't think we had anyone his equal in WWII, and that doesn't mean our WWII generals weren't any good, but it is hard to see any of their achievements as being as significant as Currie's.

Actually, Montgomery's political and social connections weren't very good at all. He had plenty of detractors, and above him in the Army, only Alanbrooke was really keen to give him a chance. That was because of his success in motivating and training troops, at which he showed above average ability from his days as a platoon commander in India, his WWI service in the trenches, and right through to his revival of Eighth Army in N. Africa. There were previous commanders of Eighth Army who were much more highly regarded by other generals and who showed more tactical flair, but who consistently came up short in the matter of actually winning battles. Soldiers generally like to survive, but if you ask them whether they would prefer to die in an elegantly managed defeat or in a fairly ordinary victory, I think most would choose the latter.

Monty did have a pretty realistic appreciation of the need to spend material and men to win battles, but I don't think anyone is an a position to say he was "casual" about getting his men killed. Other generals might have won some of those battles with fewer losses, but most generals would have lost those battles, with higher losses.

His troops generally appreciated his caution in developing every possible advantage in strength of numbers and material before launching them into a fight, and his subordinate commanders tended to express appreciation of the fact that he made his plans with very thorough staff preparation and once he launched an operation he rarely interfered with them getting on with their jobs.

I don't think Montgomery was the best general the British, let alone Allies, had in WWII, but they had many worse, and I think Montgomery, not being such a likeable personality, suffers a lot more criticism than his abilities and performance as a general warrants.
 
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From my knowledge of Montgomery I would say The Tooner is pretty much on the mark. As a matter of fact, Patton was a general who understood full well it was a war of attrition and didn't have any problem getting lots of his lads killed to win a battle or the war. Patton was constantly bothered by Montgomery's tactics because Monty actually seemed to care about losing troops, and equipment. Meanwhile Patton threw everything he had head-on at the Germans. Here is a quote to sum up my point:
"A good plan violently executed right now is far better than a perfect plan executed next week." - George S. Patton.
If you want to criticize generals, take a look at the US generals of WWII. Omar Bradley is excepted. ;)

Now, can we get back to the Poles? :D

(Man, this thread is so badly derailed we might as well start posting pics of hot Polish chicks... :p )
 
I think General Anders was a very good general, and if there had been more Poles for him to command, the history books would mention them a lot more.

Pictures of hot Polish chicks would be nice, too. Closer to the original topic, the record of their women in contributing to the resistance under the Nazi occupation is another thing the Poles can be very proud of.
 
TheTooner said:
I think General Anders was a very good general, and if there had been more Poles for him to command, the history books would mention them a lot more.

Pictures of hot Polish chicks would be nice, too. Closer to the original topic, the record of their women in contributing to the resistance under the Nazi occupation is another thing the Poles can be very proud of.

Yes he was well regarded!! The polish Brigade also fought very well!!

As to British Generals, Monty was proberly one of the best but he had many advantages in supply etc! Overall the best was proberly Slim who fourght at the end of a very long supply line where they got the last and the least of everything!! The next most important was Dill, who ended up Churchills man in Washington!

Brooke, the GIGS controlled the appointments very well and got the generals he wanted where he wanted them!! Not without a great struggle mind you!!

The best of the germans was Manstein whose controll of his forces, large or small, was masterly!!

Of the Americians, actually Eisenhower, has to be considered for his skill in holding the allied armies together! of the other generals, Patch, who commanded the US 7th Army against the germans in the Vosges campaign, has to be one of the best!

ps, I want more hot polish chicks too!!
 
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My avatar is a hot Polish chick :) And her grandfather was a highly decorated AK vet to boot!

I think I have pics here somewhere of her shooting various (modern) Polish small arms (Beryl 5.56 / BRS).

Back on topic :)
 
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TheTooner said:
Sparky's slur on Montgomery and on the British in general for being "unable to staff their officer corps" is ill-founded. There were plenty of worse generals and not many better. He was only human, and certainly not perfect, but he got his command appointments the same way most generals did - because his superiors thought at the time that he was the best, or sometimes least bad, choice available for the job at the time, and he kept them because he generally proved successfull. Of course there was some national prejudice amongst the old professional officer corps of the British services, just as there was bound to be a prejudice amongst the professionals against the all the Territorials and Reservists and war service volunteers, but actual results in combat counted, and lots of pre-war regulars found their ceiling very quickly and found themselves serving under non-regulars and even the occasional colonial, foreign, or Allied commander.

Not a slur, it was a personal observation of a man I once admired, but upon learning more of him and how he led, I no longer regard him as a great man or a great general. There is plenty of information to back up my opinion, but this thread has gotten so way off topic I am not going to delve into this in any great detail.

TheTooner said:
There is no evidence that there was a significant pool of Canadian talent for high command languishing underemployed in the Canadian Army. The Canadian Army was relatively small and very new, so there simply hadn't been time for its pool of officers to gain the experience of staff work and unit and formation command to start throwing up a lot of candidates for higher command.

I never said that the bulk of the British officer corps was Canadian, just that they needed to look outside of Britain to get enough able officers to staff the positions. Remember it was only a generation before when England, and most European nations, lost many able and intelligent men, as well as the families that were nurtured as a result.

TheTooner said:
At the junior leaders level (company and platoon commanders, platoon sergeants, corporals and lance corporals as section commanders and section 2i/c) they have to lead by example and move about more within their positions to communicate, which means they expose themselves to enemy fire more and suffer higher casualty rates per capita than ordinary soldiers. After a couple of years of war, Britain was further down the road to depletion of its stock of potential leaders. The Army found an excellent source of junior officers not so much from exchanges (trading a British platoon commander for a Canadian one doesn't fill a hole in a British battalion) as from a program called CanLoan. Many junior officers from the Canadian Army were posted to British battalions under this scheme, which on the whole reported them to be very good at their jobs. But to fault the British for not being able to find enough British officers for their troops invites the criticism that Canada couldn't raise enough Canadian troops for our Army's officers to lead.

Your logic is flawed here and brings up irrelevant information. I never faulted the British. They just didn’t have a big enough pool to draw on for officers. This is fact. Ignore it if you like. And your last sentence is just putting words into my mouth. I never implied the Canadian army could not raise enough troops. Obvious it did. Remember, at the time, Canadians were generally better educated, enabling them to be more able to become officers in the first place. England was still very class based at the time and if you didn’t go to certain schools or know certain “people”, the chances of becoming an officer was diminished, unless perhaps you had proved yourself in combat.

TheTooner said:
Actually, Montgomery's political and social connections weren't very good at all. He had plenty of detractors, and above him in the Army, only Alanbrooke was really keen to give him a chance. That was because of his success in motivating and training troops, at which he showed above average ability from his days as a platoon commander in India, his WWI service in the trenches, and right through to his revival of Eighth Army in N. Africa. There were previous commanders of Eighth Army who were much more highly regarded by other generals and who showed more tactical flair, but who consistently came up short in the matter of actually winning battles. Soldiers generally like to survive, but if you ask them whether they would prefer to die in an elegantly managed defeat or in a fairly ordinary victory, I think most would choose the latter.

You mention the revival of the Eighth Army. When Montgomery took over, it was a turning point in which only the most incompetent leader could have failed. Monty was not totally incompetent. He was very competent, but not to the standard a man at his level should have been. North Africa was lost by the Germans well before Monty took it back. Rommel was constantly short on men and supplies. N. Africa became a delaying action to tie up the Allies. If the Germans had a chance to keep it, then Hitler would never have pulled his star General out of the desert. Those other British generals often “came up short”, as you say, often due to a lack of men and supplies. Sometimes, just because they weren’t up to the job. Your last sentence has nothing to due with the argument.


TheTooner said:
Monty did have a pretty realistic appreciation of the need to spend material and men to win battles, but I don't think anyone is an a position to say he was "casual" about getting his men killed. Other generals might have won some of those battles with fewer losses, but most generals would have lost those battles, with higher losses.

What’s your point? Monty was known to dither which cost lives in the immediate and/or when he finally got off the pot and advanced.

TheTooner said:
His troops generally appreciated his caution in developing every possible advantage in strength of numbers and material before launching them into a fight, and his subordinate commanders tended to express appreciation of the fact that he made his plans with very thorough staff preparation and once he launched an operation he rarely interfered with them getting on with their jobs.

Again, he dithered. He often took an inordinate amount of time to prepare for battle. His caution did cost lives. If not of the troops he was directly leading, then of the troops who were engaged in other areas of operation taking the brunt of the beating while he prepared.

TheTooner said:
I don't think Montgomery was the best general the British, let alone Allies, had in WWII, but they had many worse, and I think Montgomery, not being such a likeable personality, suffers a lot more criticism than his abilities and performance as a general warrants.

You destroy your own argument. He was not the best. No, but thought he was and was treated as such. The fact that there were worse generals is very sad indeed.

One point that Gibbs505 mentions, Monty had advantages in supply. That makes a huge difference. Many other commanders suffered supply shortages due to Monty and his self-perceived infallibility.


Monty said:
From my knowledge of Montgomery I would say The Tooner is pretty much on the mark. As a matter of fact, Patton was a general who understood full well it was a war of attrition and didn't have any problem getting lots of his lads killed to win a battle or the war. Patton was constantly bothered by Montgomery's tactics because Monty actually seemed to care about losing troops, and equipment. Meanwhile Patton threw everything he had head-on at the Germans. Here is a quote to sum up my point: "A good plan violently executed right now is far better than a perfect plan executed next week." - George S. Patton. If you want to criticize generals, take a look at the US generals of WWII. Omar Bradley is excepted. ;)

Yes, Patton had no problem jumping into the fray. He was the only commander the Germans really feared and respected. They thought Monty a bit of a fool. Sure Patton made mistakes. All commanders do. However, Patton was not afraid to commit to battle. A commander is there to lead and win in battle. It may appear on the surface that Patton lost a lot of troops from his style of engagement. However, he responded very quickly and decisively, often undersupplied and his engagements were not drawn out which would definitely lose men to the attrition of a protracted engagement. Your quote of Patton’s is excellent. Monty would wait too long to engage and the situation in the field would change, but Monty would maintain his plans without adapting, unlike Patton who could do it on the fly. Monty would ignore intelligence if it didn’t fit with the way he wanted to execute his plans. Monty may have cared about British troops under his command, but ask any America Paras who were in Holland if they thought he cared about them. He refused to release them back to American command and used them as line infantry because he kept his own troops in reserve a big push that never really materialised.

People say Monty was great. I have two words: Market Garden. Statistically a success. However, the main objective was never met, he misused the airborne, which he had never commanded before. Didn’t know how to use his armour. Didn’t adapt to the evolving situation. The initial plan of battle was null and void when the first Paras jumped, but he hardly changed his plans.

I’ve said enough on this topic. If you folks would like to continue to extol the virtues of Montgomery and disassemble my points and refute them and find me in error, go ahead, but I think a new thread should be started.

I love these discussions. It’s a good mental exercise and keeps history alive. This has been fun.

Cheers guys,
sparky
 
John Sukey said:
Just reminded of the wonderful Russians and what they did in the Katryn Forest. No wonder the Poles hate them.

Just to make things clear. Poles suffered a lot in WWII. No doubt about it. An idiot would argue with that.

But here's the BUT:

Serbs lost 40% of their population in WWII so your statements that Poles suffered the most are simply not true.

And as a Russian I tell you - Screw you and your selfpity.

Weren't you the one quoting an 18th century Polish proverb "A Russian is a nice fella but better hang him"? Poles have always hated Russians and always wanted to have a piece of them, just like many others - Swedes, Germans, French, etc. Everyone eventually got their asses kicked but we managed to rebuild our relations with the Swedes, the Germans, the French, integrated each other's cultures and learned from our mistakes. Yet the Poles just keep on hating, like a little yappy dog barking at an Elephant. Harmless but very annoying.

The Eastern territories you guys were talking about had originally and throughout most of their history been parts of Russia/Belarus/Ukraine. Yes, there were times when those territories were invaded, rampaged and utterly raped by the Poles but eventually they were returned. WWII gave a "nice" opportunity to do it quickly and in a way the West would not go yapping about it. And Russians paid in kind for the 18th century proverbs and centuries of raids, rampages, and rape sufferent by the people of western Belarus and Ukraine.

Have a nice day. Keep on hating Russians.

As much as I try to stay neutral, enough is enough. Of course I am biased too but as far as I am concerned this thread is full of hatred towards Russians. And what's funny, the vast majority of Polish casualties fell in the hands of the German war machine but all the hatred is still spilled on the Russians.

Pity you.
 
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geniak said:
Just to make things clear. Poles suffered a lot in WWII. No doubt about it. An idiot would argue with that.

But here's the BUT:

Serbs lost 40% of their population in WWII so your statements that Poles suffered the most are simply not true.

And as a Russian I tell you - Screw you and your selfpity.


What self-pity are you talking about? No doubt the Serbs suffered. It was an intense theatre of operations, largely forgotten by history. However, the Serbs brought a lot of it down on themselves. They were fighting more than one war at a time. Very bad to do, usually leaves you quite decimated in the end.

geniak said:
Weren't you the one quoting an 18th century Polish proverb "A Russian is a nice fella but better hang him"? Poles have always hated Russians and always wanted to have a piece of them, just like many others - Swedes, Germans, French, etc. Everyone eventually got their asses kicked but we managed to rebuild our relations with the Swedes, the Germans, the French, integrated each other's cultures and learned from our mistakes. Yet the Poles just keep on hating, like a little yappy dog barking at an Elephant. Harmless but very annoying.

Whoever used that quote first in this thread, I do not recall and am not going to search to find out; it’s a great quote nonetheless.

Oh how Russians forget history to suit themselves. Read a Russian history book not written by a Russian or an apologist for them. Russians had the stuffing beat out them more than once. Mongols and Poles among them. Poland did occupy the Russian capital in the past and beat the daylights out them in the 1919-20 war as well. Sorry, you lose Comrade. Don’t forget, elephants are afraid of a teeny-weeny mouse.

geniak said:
The Eastern territories you guys were talking about had originally and throughout most of their history been parts of Russia/Belarus/Ukraine. Yes, there were times when those territories were invaded, rampaged and utterly raped by the Poles but eventually they were returned. WWII gave a "nice" opportunity to do it quickly and in a way the West would not go yapping about it. And Russians paid in kind for the 18th century proverbs and centuries of raids, rampages, and rape sufferent by the people of western Belarus and Ukraine.

Again, read a good history book. Russians raped a heck of a lot more people, land, nationalities, religions, etc. than most. Stalin killed more people than Hitler could ever have dreamed of. Those territories you claim to be Russian. Nyet buddy. Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian, Romanian, Byelorussian (some) yes and others. All of western Ukraine today was never part of historical Ukraine. Do some research. And don’t forget Russia is descended from Rus’, which was situated in what is modern eastern Ukraine, by Scandinavians. You guys forget a lot to suit yourselves.

geniak said:
Have a nice day. Keep on hating Russians.

I will and I will. Cheers.

geniak said:
As much as I try to stay neutral, enough is enough. Of course I am biased too but as far as I am concerned this thread is full of hatred towards Russians. And what's funny, the vast majority of Polish casualties fell in the hands of the German war machine but all the hatred is still spilled on the Russians.

Pity you.

Vast majority to the Germans? Well if the Russians ever reveal how many Poles they sent to Siberia for just being Polish during war and died there and how many Poles were executed for just being Poles during the war (and before and after). I think many people would not be surprised. Don’t forget Katyn and all the other execution pits. Don’t forget how the Soviet/Russian army stood on the other side of the Vistula during the Warsaw Uprising and waited until the Germans flattened the city.

Pity us. No, pity you. Russians are the masters of self-pity.

Come back to us when you have something truthful to say. Until then, dosvydanya.

Cheers,
sparky
 
BTW, if you look at the numbers. And numbers are hard to argue with.

According to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_casualties_by_country
Total Polish casualties in WWII were 5,600,000, or ~16% of the entire population. Only 400,000 of these were military losses and 3,000,000 of Jews.
Given that Poland was, and PLEASE don't argue with the fact, one of the most anti-semitic countries in Europe (two countires with previously significant Jewish population were left Jewish-free - Poland and Croatia with their Ustasha division), if we subtract the Jewish losses from the total number we will end up with 2,600,000 Polish casualties, that will bring the number down to ~7.5%.

Why so low a number, you may ask? Especially given that it was so brutally and systematically razed by both Germans and Russians? Oh, it must be because Poles are the most brave and skilled warriors in the world..... r-r-r-r-ight...
Or maybe because many of them were happy to see the Jews "go" and helped them along the way? True, no formal Polish SS divisions were ever formed, but still Poland ended up Jewish free!!!! How interesting!

Yugoslavia lost over 700,000 civilians the overwhelming majority of whom were Serbs (Croatia and muslims fought WITH the Germans) and those numbers were cooked (lowered) by Tito (a Croat) to sooth the relations between his newly formed Republics within Yugoslavia. Strange... and quickly into the war, Croatia declared itself Jewish-free. I see a pattern here.

In short, fine gentlemen, facts can be looked at at different angles, Poles are no better and no worse that any other nation on this planet.
It is only plausible that you want to learn more about the history of your nation, and that you feel proud of what you are and where you came from.
But please, keep it civil, don't try to do it at the cost of other people's pride, don't wipe your feet on the Russian rug. Just leave the big brother alone.


Cheers
 
Ok, I do not hate any Russians, my good hunting buddy is Ukranian, I just get pissed off when people venture off topic, kind of. Please do me a favor and read some of the articles here:

http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/history/index.shtml

there are lots of links in regards to WW2 and all the other wars.

Also I can not hate someone because of something their parents or grandparents did. If that was the case any Jew living in Germany would be shooting germans, etc. etc. etc.

Cheers & cheer up. I thought were talking about the Polish Cavalry.

Thanks,

Alex

p.s. Any stupid and offensive "proverbs" should be removed from this thread, they really don't do anything good other then insult people and stir #### up.
 
ollie said:
patiently waiting for pictures of hot polish girls...

Me too!!

Geniak: PFFFTT to you.

Don't drag the Jews into this conversation, you TROLL. You are trying to stir crap were crap doesn't need to be stirred up. I have found in the past that those who accuse others of being anti Semites are themselves that very same thing. Is that you? Are you trying to draw attention to yourself? Do you have any deeply buried hatreds, fears, feelings of guilt? Please reflect upon yourself and release the hatred.

Keep reading those Russian history books, but keep in mind they should be replaced every 10-15 years or so. It seems the Russians like re-writing history about that often.

If you read everybody's threads PROPERLY, no one is saying one group is superior to another, but rather highlighting the extraordinary successes of those nations.

You are dumbwitted at best and brainwashed at worst. Keep posting as you see fit, however I will now ignore you.

This had been a civil and very lively thread with different opinions and view points wich seemed to have been respected by all (to a point!, unitl you came along.

Go spread your hatred soemwhere else.

For the record, yes I do not like the Russians. Why? Because they slaughtered my family in the 40's and continued to persecute them through the 70's until we got all of them out. Hmmm, maybe I am a Jew, maybe I am a Pole, maybe I am a Jewish Pole, heck I may even by a Russian, but none of that matters, since my opinion of the Russians is my opinion and its rooted in deep personal family tragedy, and I will not let the likes of people like you try to bury it and forget it, or detract from it, by raising the "Jewish scenario".

Back to the hot Polish chicks riding on Polish Cavalry!!

LI
 
Gibbs505 said:
Bring On The Polish Chicks!!

Here you go:

GLPolChick.JPEG

GLPolChicks.JPEG

PolishWhBtyChik.JPEG

PolishBuffLBtyChik.JPEG

SLPolChik.JPEG

WCBPChik.JPEG



Here's the link for those of you who cannot get enough:

Polish Chicks

Sorry L.I. can't find any on horses.



savagefan said:
This just in, the war's over!

You sir are correct. Some people forget that, especially in a heated, but friendly, argument.

Cheers,
sparky

P.S. Can't we all just get along? Think of the children! Won't anyone think of the children?
 
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Sparky, sorry but you are off base with your opinion of FM Montgomery!
He is a great General, although not in the top tier of generals! It was his plan that the allies excuted in Overlord and before that in the retaking of the western desert up to the joining of the allied armies in Tunisa. I shudder to think what a mess Patton, great general he was otherwise, would have made of in Normandy!!

An ass he was in other way's yes. His personal relations with many of his contempories was poor, to say the least. Yes he is often critised about waiting to bring up man and supplies before attacking! But the failiure to do this was the very failing which destroyed the reputations of many capable british generals! Ie, the outrunning of their supply line which lead to counter attacks by Rommel!

You have to look at the facts. The reason that Rommel failed so often in the attacks on egypt was because he outran his supplies and allowed the british to counter attack as they had fallen back on their own supply base! Montgomery refused to fall into the same trap and you damn him for it!

BTW the reason for the cmment about Patton in the beginning is because the most important battle in overloard was the battle of the buildup so that the allies remained in command of the situation! patton never understood this, however later americian soldiers and generals did, eg General Powell!

It is said that Patton reacted to German moves tactically while Montgomery forced the Germans to react to him by actingly stragically!
 
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