Powder and reloading questions
- Thread starter Shovel
- Start date
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Having a caliper is a pretty basic tool for a hand loader to have - but not likely that you will use it to measure your re-size on the brass. Some calipers have display to 4 decimal places, but the box it comes in says it is accurate to .001" - so that 4th number seems to be "made up", but some seem to think it makes the caliper "more accurate". A true micrometer is what you want to measure to .0001" accuracy, not a caliper, and the better micrometers usually come with a standard that is traceable to NIST to confirm the micrometer's settings.
But for much re-sizing, is about no measuring or extra tools - either your resized brass fits to your rifle's chamber or it does not. Trying to reload a pile of cases for use in four different rifles, means either you find the smallest one of the four and fussy size to that - and therefore too much re-sizing for the others - or FLS everything and your product will fit and function in all four rifles just fine.
But for much re-sizing, is about no measuring or extra tools - either your resized brass fits to your rifle's chamber or it does not. Trying to reload a pile of cases for use in four different rifles, means either you find the smallest one of the four and fussy size to that - and therefore too much re-sizing for the others - or FLS everything and your product will fit and function in all four rifles just fine.
That’s Great you will be able to check out the 4064 loads now . RJ
4350 for the 3.5" magnum loads.
For reloading, calipers are all you need. KMS has some good deals, you don't need one from the reloading companies,.They are same Chinese quality, only they cost twice as much. The dial ones don't need batteries. Hint Hint
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Terrific comment! There is several here that the batteries must be run down - even with new batteries, do not always go back to "zero", if I close the jaws after measuring something - I just do not trust them to give a valid number. The one that I use most - almost daily - is very elderly - a vernier scale - not even a dial - but several younger folk that have been here have no clue how a vernier would be read - maybe not too common any more? The brand name is "Craftsman" - was likely bought via Simpson Sears catalogue - so is some years to it ...
Heres a crazy idea. See if the brass fits in the chamber(s) before you load them up. Otherwise, you're going to need more equipment to break down the loaded cartridges. And yes, you need a FL die. Your Lee manual will expain why.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
cosmic's suggestion - is how I set a resizing die for some of the odd ball cartridges here - like 9.3x57 - reformed from 8x57 cases - so made to be nearly straight wall - then turn down that 9.3x57 sizing die a bit at a time - creating a "false shoulder" - try that case in my chamber - sooner or later a tiny amount of turn on the die will be the difference between bolt not closing and then it does. So at that point, you know that you have the die set really close to that chamber - the "head space" or "end play" is at about "0". But then when a bullet gets seated into that re-sized case neck, the neck will get slightly fatter - is "neck tension" - neck is re-sized slightly smaller than bullet on inside of case mouth - I think you will read in Richard Lee book that he thinks .002" increase is desirable and about correct. The brass is stretched somewhat when a bullet gets seated - so your loaded round's case neck is a bit fatter than your re-sized brass was. Maybe is a good idea to know that your re-sized case will just so chamber, first - now try one - no primer or powder - just seat a bullet and confirm that will still fits into the chamber - maybe your chamber neck is a bit tighter than usual - maybe your brass case mouth walls are a bit thicker than usual - usually helps to know that before loading up a couple dozen or hundred and find that none of them fit. My thinking might be affected by having collet bullet pullers for most caliber sizes - so is not too much fuss for me to pull a bullet, if I need to - I did not always have that.
For a local younger fellow that I am coaching to get started on re-loading, I suggested that he tool up to be able to pull a bullet as easily as he is able to seat one - there are several different "systems" that let you pull a bullet without marring it - re-loader guy is going to make mistakes, or an idea that did not work out, or rounds getting too hot - so can pull the bullet - salvage it, the powder, the case and the primer - all can be re-used for another try - so perhaps encourages you to try stuff - if it does not work out, I think it should be easy to pull down the "problem children" and start over with the components.
If you are intending to use that batch in four different rifles, is probably a good plan to try that test cartridge in all four - to make certain that they fit into each - For some cartridges, SAAMI calls out up to .010" difference between a Min and a Max length chamber - many rifles have a new barrel installed using NOGO and GO gauges which can result in .004" difference, one to another. So very conceivable to end up with nice snug fit in one or two rifles and won't fit at all in others - of the same "chambering' - or, use FLS die or Small Base re-sizing die maker's instructions and all will fit and fire safely in all chambers.
For a local younger fellow that I am coaching to get started on re-loading, I suggested that he tool up to be able to pull a bullet as easily as he is able to seat one - there are several different "systems" that let you pull a bullet without marring it - re-loader guy is going to make mistakes, or an idea that did not work out, or rounds getting too hot - so can pull the bullet - salvage it, the powder, the case and the primer - all can be re-used for another try - so perhaps encourages you to try stuff - if it does not work out, I think it should be easy to pull down the "problem children" and start over with the components.
If you are intending to use that batch in four different rifles, is probably a good plan to try that test cartridge in all four - to make certain that they fit into each - For some cartridges, SAAMI calls out up to .010" difference between a Min and a Max length chamber - many rifles have a new barrel installed using NOGO and GO gauges which can result in .004" difference, one to another. So very conceivable to end up with nice snug fit in one or two rifles and won't fit at all in others - of the same "chambering' - or, use FLS die or Small Base re-sizing die maker's instructions and all will fit and fire safely in all chambers.
Last edited:
Good tip about trying the empty cases in the different rifles. All the brass I have came from one rifle that I've been working on. Only 70 cases. Thats what started me to reload. The rifle tumbles all the ammo I have. Tried a lot of different factory ammo. Someone suggested trying cast bullets. The brass in the future will come from any of the 4.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
That would about reinforce the suggestions above that you will want to use FLS die - or perhaps Small Base dies if any are pump, lever or semi-auto. Is a thing that some will do called "partial full length" sizing - a way to get most of the "benefit" of neck sizing, with minimal disturbance of the fired case body - is easy enough to do with regular full length size dies - but I doubt that can be done for four rifles, all at same time.
It will be what you discover - is one thing to make ammo that goes "bang" - safely - and is usually "good enough" for most shooters, for most uses. Is typical that specialty guys will do more than that - tuning a particular piece of brass for a particular chamber - but is not really a beginner thing - first objective is to make lots, that work in your rifles - once comfortable doing that, then can get more fussy about various specialty techniques for a particular rifle and particular application. What a guy needs who wants to shoot a couple deer, versus a guy that wants to shoot 1000 yard gongs, versus a guy that want to shoot sub-.020" groups at 100 yards are all different. And many things that are valuable to one, are pretty much waste of time to another.
I have a few Model of 1917 Enfields - so from WWI - and the ammo from back then was called 1906 - so we no longer have that powder or those primers or those bullets - but a 30-06 from WWI was getting about 2700 fps with 150-ish grain bullets from those 26" barrels. Most modern people would consider that to be pretty dismal today - but was what those sights were calibrated for. So I had visions of doing similar - load up a box of many dozen rounds that could be used in any of the rifles - promptly ran into the thing of making them "good enough" for all, or specific to one. Turns out there are differences, one to the other - even the required bullet seating depth to get about .030 bullet jump to the lands is different - one rifle to the other - that might be a function of wear through use, manufacturing tolerances, or whatever.
Your tumbling thing might be un-related to your hand loading - in my limited experience with that - typically a function of bullet LENGTH (not weight) and the rate of twist in the barrel, and the muzzle velocity - a longer bullet needs to spin faster in air, versus a shorter bullet - to fly pointy end first. Muzzle velocity and twist rate of the rifling will influence the RPM on that bullet as it exits the muzzle - is possible with under-size for bore that the bullet skids or strips from the rifling as it goes down that bore, meaning it is not spinning fast enough as it leaves the barrel. That could mean that the bullet is undersize, or the bore is overly large diameter - if the rifling still looks as it should - typically from .0035" to .004" deep for many centerfire bores when new.
It will be what you discover - is one thing to make ammo that goes "bang" - safely - and is usually "good enough" for most shooters, for most uses. Is typical that specialty guys will do more than that - tuning a particular piece of brass for a particular chamber - but is not really a beginner thing - first objective is to make lots, that work in your rifles - once comfortable doing that, then can get more fussy about various specialty techniques for a particular rifle and particular application. What a guy needs who wants to shoot a couple deer, versus a guy that wants to shoot 1000 yard gongs, versus a guy that want to shoot sub-.020" groups at 100 yards are all different. And many things that are valuable to one, are pretty much waste of time to another.
I have a few Model of 1917 Enfields - so from WWI - and the ammo from back then was called 1906 - so we no longer have that powder or those primers or those bullets - but a 30-06 from WWI was getting about 2700 fps with 150-ish grain bullets from those 26" barrels. Most modern people would consider that to be pretty dismal today - but was what those sights were calibrated for. So I had visions of doing similar - load up a box of many dozen rounds that could be used in any of the rifles - promptly ran into the thing of making them "good enough" for all, or specific to one. Turns out there are differences, one to the other - even the required bullet seating depth to get about .030 bullet jump to the lands is different - one rifle to the other - that might be a function of wear through use, manufacturing tolerances, or whatever.
Your tumbling thing might be un-related to your hand loading - in my limited experience with that - typically a function of bullet LENGTH (not weight) and the rate of twist in the barrel, and the muzzle velocity - a longer bullet needs to spin faster in air, versus a shorter bullet - to fly pointy end first. Muzzle velocity and twist rate of the rifling will influence the RPM on that bullet as it exits the muzzle - is possible with under-size for bore that the bullet skids or strips from the rifling as it goes down that bore, meaning it is not spinning fast enough as it leaves the barrel. That could mean that the bullet is undersize, or the bore is overly large diameter - if the rifling still looks as it should - typically from .0035" to .004" deep for many centerfire bores when new.
Last edited:
I started to try the empty brass in one of the other rifles i had handy. Break open CZ. Went in easily. Realized doesn't matter. If its too lose then it will be too tight for the other rifle
reloading next time. Think Ill make a couple rounds for the rifle Im working on. Picked up a digital scale today to weigh the bullet. Heres the rifle and I guess the story how I got to this point. Disregard the bullets. They went back in the pot. Made 72 that turned out better https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/2362319-Vintage-Marlin-455-bolt-action-Mauser
reloading next time. Think Ill make a couple rounds for the rifle Im working on. Picked up a digital scale today to weigh the bullet. Heres the rifle and I guess the story how I got to this point. Disregard the bullets. They went back in the pot. Made 72 that turned out better https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/2362319-Vintage-Marlin-455-bolt-action-Mauser
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Your very last post in that thread that you linked - in my experience, properly sized cast bullets should NOT go into the muzzle - they should be circa .001" to .002" larger diameter than the groove size, so probably like .010" or .012" larger than rifling diameter - top of one rifling to top of opposite one - AKA "bore size". Unless you mean they won't go into your chamber when you reloaded them - likely goes to size (diameter) of the chamber neck area versus the diameter of your load - which is a function of the diameter of the bullet that you used plus the thickness of the case's mouth walls. I think normal SAAMI dimensions often calls out like .002" clearance or more - loaded case neck to chamber neck - if your cast bullets are sized too fat, then the reload will probably not want to fit in there.
If it matters to you, SAAMI calls out .3435" diameter for mouth of 308 Win cartridge, and same .3435" diameter at cartridge neck where it joins the shoulder - so a straight neck. But they call out .3442" diameter at mouth for cartridge - that is cut in the chamber - then call for .3462" where the neck joins the shoulder - in the chamber cut. Who knows what standard that your chamber was cut to meet, back in the day at where-ever, but those would be the numbers that SAAMI calls out for today's products - so .0007" clearance at the mouth and .0027 clearance where the neck meets the shoulder.
Not sure what you will eventually find with that Marlin - but for sure a thorough clean is a very good start - need to get ALL the crap out - was not put there by factory. I think after experience of WWI and WWII was a LOT of world experience at making decent rifling - should not have been a mystery - but various makers did try some odd things - and they sold! - For example, I have a made-in-1955 Husqvarna Model 4100 in 7x57 - for whatever reason they chose to rifle that one in 1-12" when Germans, Spanish and others had been using 1-8.66" rifling for decades. I read somewhere that they must have been thinking user would be using 140 grain or 150 grain Round Nose or something, to use a twist that slow for a 7x57 - but there it is - was done, and apparently many were sold - meaning many people bought them - must have been what they wanted to get.
Slugging the bore can reveal interesting stuff - I have a BSA sporter conversion - correctly chambered and marked as a .270 Winchester - bore measures to .270" as you would expect - except the groove diameter is .282" - NOT what one would expect at all - should be more like .277" The former owner was getting like 4" groups at 25 yards with multiple loads and multiple reasonable bullet weights - various brands of bullets - yet when he got the rifle, it was well used - somebody had apparently been out hunting with it - a lot - like that!! Both the CGN guy that I got it from had slugged that bore, and I did as well when I received it - both of us got the same results.
If it matters to you, SAAMI calls out .3435" diameter for mouth of 308 Win cartridge, and same .3435" diameter at cartridge neck where it joins the shoulder - so a straight neck. But they call out .3442" diameter at mouth for cartridge - that is cut in the chamber - then call for .3462" where the neck joins the shoulder - in the chamber cut. Who knows what standard that your chamber was cut to meet, back in the day at where-ever, but those would be the numbers that SAAMI calls out for today's products - so .0007" clearance at the mouth and .0027 clearance where the neck meets the shoulder.
Not sure what you will eventually find with that Marlin - but for sure a thorough clean is a very good start - need to get ALL the crap out - was not put there by factory. I think after experience of WWI and WWII was a LOT of world experience at making decent rifling - should not have been a mystery - but various makers did try some odd things - and they sold! - For example, I have a made-in-1955 Husqvarna Model 4100 in 7x57 - for whatever reason they chose to rifle that one in 1-12" when Germans, Spanish and others had been using 1-8.66" rifling for decades. I read somewhere that they must have been thinking user would be using 140 grain or 150 grain Round Nose or something, to use a twist that slow for a 7x57 - but there it is - was done, and apparently many were sold - meaning many people bought them - must have been what they wanted to get.
Slugging the bore can reveal interesting stuff - I have a BSA sporter conversion - correctly chambered and marked as a .270 Winchester - bore measures to .270" as you would expect - except the groove diameter is .282" - NOT what one would expect at all - should be more like .277" The former owner was getting like 4" groups at 25 yards with multiple loads and multiple reasonable bullet weights - various brands of bullets - yet when he got the rifle, it was well used - somebody had apparently been out hunting with it - a lot - like that!! Both the CGN guy that I got it from had slugged that bore, and I did as well when I received it - both of us got the same results.
Last edited:
This rifle feels right. It chambers and ejects everything fine. Tried a lot of different ammo. Tried the cast bullet from the muzzle. Won't go in with some pressure. Waiting for the first cast bullet to fly. Hopping it will make a perfect round hole
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Regarding bullet stabilization - twist rate - looking at Greenhill formula and various derivatives and improvements on that - seems to want input of bullet LENGTH (not weight) - yet many people refer to relating twist rate in barrel to bullet WEIGHT. Is not always correct to think that way - see the two pictures below - the lighter bullets are LONGER than the heavier one - so could very well need tighter barrel twist rate to stabilize those LONGER bullets. Might be what you are up against? Is no doubt that consideration of bullet weight is in there - is related most of the time to the muzzle velocity that is possible from a particular cartridge body, but is not a direct input into those formulas, like bullet LENGTH is. The end game, I think, is RPM of the bullet as it emerges from muzzle - I find it curious that bullet makers do not specify that number for their bullets to stabilize in air - but RPM going to be influenced by both barrel twist rate and muzzle velocity (which is often influenced by barrel length, besides bullet weight).
For that 1-12" 7x57, I ended up with some Woodleigh 140 grain .284" PP SN bullets - about the shortest that I could find to buy. Is still yet to be seen if they fly better than, say, 7mm 160 grain Sierra SPBT.
That "micro groove" rifling is outside my experience - never owned that, even in a rimfire - so no clue how well that actually works for either jacketed or cast bullets. Just a wild guess that someone thought it was cool idea - might be related to patent protection or the cost to make, though - else would think "everyone" would provide that, if it was really great idea?? I think is much more common to see 4 groove, 5 groove, 6 groove rifling - typically about .004" deep - in circa .30 caliber barrels - even war time production found that 2 groove barrels were at least "good enough" for most purposes.
For that 1-12" 7x57, I ended up with some Woodleigh 140 grain .284" PP SN bullets - about the shortest that I could find to buy. Is still yet to be seen if they fly better than, say, 7mm 160 grain Sierra SPBT.
That "micro groove" rifling is outside my experience - never owned that, even in a rimfire - so no clue how well that actually works for either jacketed or cast bullets. Just a wild guess that someone thought it was cool idea - might be related to patent protection or the cost to make, though - else would think "everyone" would provide that, if it was really great idea?? I think is much more common to see 4 groove, 5 groove, 6 groove rifling - typically about .004" deep - in circa .30 caliber barrels - even war time production found that 2 groove barrels were at least "good enough" for most purposes.
Attachments
Last edited:
Never knew about micro groove till a while ago. Im thinking a longer soft lead bullet moving a bit slower might grab the lands better? The cast bullets are about 7/8" long. And 167gr with the gas check. Ill wait till I try a few rounds to see how they go. Before pushing the lead through the bore to see if there is a bulge
Got the Lee manual. Nice to see it is hardcover. Browsed through the first few pages.
Got the Lee manual. Nice to see it is hardcover. Browsed through the first few pages.
