Powder and reloading questions
- Thread starter Shovel
- Start date
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Chances are good that you will do fine with those dies. Somewhere I had read that Lee dies tend to be on tighter side of specs, so very possible that you will be fine. You probably want to take fired brass from most anywhere - lube it, and then run it through that Lee FLS die that was set up as per Lee Instructions - trim, chamfer and de-burr that case, de-lube it, and then see if that empty, sized case chambers in each of your rifles. It is the instance where that case will NOT chamber into a particular rifle chamber that will get you looking for solutions. If that were to happen - is common enough to mark up the exterior of that case with Jiffy Marker - then try to chamber again - where the case is "too tight", the Jiffy marker likely scuffed or rubbed off - gives you a clue what to resolve next.
When you get that far, might be an idea to first confirm that the re-sized cases will chamber into any of the four rifles. Several reloading manuals will tell you how to determine how deep to seat that bullet to get particular "jump" to lands - no need to buy extra tooling, although it is sold to do so - just need a cleaning rod and piece of dowel - Woodleigh manual, for example, suggests .020" to .040" as "jump" for starting - good enough for testing powder loads. I have a number of P17 in 30-06 - no two have the same distance "jump" to lands - different distance closed bolt face to the start of the rifling. And the COAL given in the manual is outright "bad wrong" in a couple instances - in one case, I would be .030" jammed into the lands, using that maker's bullets and the COAL that they recommend. Then seat one bullet of interest into one case, and confirm that will allow all four rifles to close up - will confirm to you that the resulting neck OD and the COAL is fine for use in any of those rifles.
When you get that far, might be an idea to first confirm that the re-sized cases will chamber into any of the four rifles. Several reloading manuals will tell you how to determine how deep to seat that bullet to get particular "jump" to lands - no need to buy extra tooling, although it is sold to do so - just need a cleaning rod and piece of dowel - Woodleigh manual, for example, suggests .020" to .040" as "jump" for starting - good enough for testing powder loads. I have a number of P17 in 30-06 - no two have the same distance "jump" to lands - different distance closed bolt face to the start of the rifling. And the COAL given in the manual is outright "bad wrong" in a couple instances - in one case, I would be .030" jammed into the lands, using that maker's bullets and the COAL that they recommend. Then seat one bullet of interest into one case, and confirm that will allow all four rifles to close up - will confirm to you that the resulting neck OD and the COAL is fine for use in any of those rifles.
Not sure if it has been mentioned already: OP, maximum COAL will depend on the particular bullet you use. It's easy enough to find the max COAL for each rifle's chamber/throat, and set your COAL to ~.020" under the smallest maximum COAL that you found. Then you've also got to confirm that this COAL will clear each of the rifles' actions for loading and unloading live rounds, as well as fitting in and feeding from your rifles' magazines. It's probably a non-issue, but experience has taught me that it's worth checking...
All of this should be covered in your manual, of course.
All of this should be covered in your manual, of course.
The new seating die is adjustable so that's good. Looked at the Hornady gauge. Decided to go with the dowel. Should get me close and then fine tune the depth. Got a dial caliper coming. Learning things every day. Looking at the comparison of the cast and factory the cast has a lot more area contacting the rifling.
Thinking of taking the rifles out and shooting a few rounds per rifle. And see how interchangeable they are.
What are the thoughts on crimping?
Thinking of taking the rifles out and shooting a few rounds per rifle. And see how interchangeable they are.
What are the thoughts on crimping?
- Location
- Western Manitoba
I have never had that, so you are ahead - never had four different rifles each chamber unsized cartridges from unknown previous firing. When I was younger my buddy had a Parker Hale rifle in 308 Win, and I had a push feed Model 70 Winchester in same. I no longer remember - each of us could chamber same factory ammo - but either his fired brass would not let my bolt close, or other way around - although same "cartridge" - they were slightly different chambers. Always was at least one "problem child" for me, if not two or three of them. Good for you that they all fit!!!
Next would be to figure out length from closed bolt to start of rifling (the lands) for each rifle - would lead you to know what COAL that you could seat bullets to, and to fit to them all. With vagrancies of wear and manufacturing - is no good reason to expect them to be all the same - but maybe you get UBER lucky!!!
A target shooting guy who was trying to tune a load for a particular rifle would be concerned about distance from bolt face to the tangent on the bullet - I can not see that working out if you are trying to come up with one loading for four different rifles. At least three of the rifles in the picture have got a magazine - so COAL starts by having to be short enough to go into each magazine and then be able to feed from there - not sure that will be an issue for that break action. You may have to play a bit - if your mag is 2.850" long, then you likely want loads be be like .030" or .050" shorter to be able to ride up - if they fit "tight", might not actually work. And then once fitting into the magazine, is about crap shoot where you might be in relation to your lands. So fit to magazine first, then adjust to .020" or .040" off the lands, if you have the mag room for that.
And as mentioned in a post above - that COAL length is likely going to be different for each brand and weight of bullet that you use. As mentioned, DO NOT RELY on the COAL given in reloading manuals - I have one 30-06 that would be jammed .030" into the lands, at that length, with their bullet. Tells me that you pretty much have to measure in your rifle to know - unless you are very lucky, and do not care about such things.
Next would be to figure out length from closed bolt to start of rifling (the lands) for each rifle - would lead you to know what COAL that you could seat bullets to, and to fit to them all. With vagrancies of wear and manufacturing - is no good reason to expect them to be all the same - but maybe you get UBER lucky!!!
A target shooting guy who was trying to tune a load for a particular rifle would be concerned about distance from bolt face to the tangent on the bullet - I can not see that working out if you are trying to come up with one loading for four different rifles. At least three of the rifles in the picture have got a magazine - so COAL starts by having to be short enough to go into each magazine and then be able to feed from there - not sure that will be an issue for that break action. You may have to play a bit - if your mag is 2.850" long, then you likely want loads be be like .030" or .050" shorter to be able to ride up - if they fit "tight", might not actually work. And then once fitting into the magazine, is about crap shoot where you might be in relation to your lands. So fit to magazine first, then adjust to .020" or .040" off the lands, if you have the mag room for that.
And as mentioned in a post above - that COAL length is likely going to be different for each brand and weight of bullet that you use. As mentioned, DO NOT RELY on the COAL given in reloading manuals - I have one 30-06 that would be jammed .030" into the lands, at that length, with their bullet. Tells me that you pretty much have to measure in your rifle to know - unless you are very lucky, and do not care about such things.
Last edited:
I had a 6.5x55 sporter that key holed, at least with a light 100gr load.From what I understood, it could be a bad muzzle . I never tried a heavier bullet or heavier charge. I ended up giving it away to my daughter in law. Let my son deal with the muzzle question. Brownnell has a hand muzzle repair tool.
From what I've read the way to measure the coal is to close the rifle bolt, put the cleaning rod in from the muzzle till it contacts the bolt face and mark the rod. Then load the bullet push it in as far as it will go with a wood dowel. Put the rod in again and mark it. The measurement between the 2 lines should be pretty close to the coal. I'm thinking the coal will be a little shorter than the factory ammo due to the shape of the cast bullet.
I didn't try to close the bolt. Just slipped the case in the chamber by hand. Went in easily. Also tried the bullet in the different cases. All were about the same tightness. The blr case was just a hair tighter
I did pick up a brass muzzle crown lapping bit. And it did get scratched up a little when I used it so might have smoothed something out. But still keyholing. I've tried 110gr to 180gr. Boat tail and flat base. The lighter loads are all over the paper and the heavier actually group nice.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Your sequence description how to get COAL that is HARD on the lands - which you probably do not want. Woodleigh manual suggests to deduct .020" to .040" from that "hard on the lands" distance. They suggest that as a suitable bullet "jump", for working up or testing various powder loads - once you find what you consider the most useful powder weight to use, then you might want to "fine tune" that jump distance. I had read that "all copper" mono-metal bullets like some Barnes bullets might want .050" or more jump - other bullets / rifles might want less than .010" - is up to you to find the length that works best with your gear and your rifle.
I am pretty sure one of the rifles here has a "jump" well over .100", in order to fit into that magazine - and the 9.3x57 that I am working on - simply can not reach the lands - cast bullet will be out of the case mouth by 1/4" or more before the fat part of the bore rider bullets engages the lands. I do not know about much that can be done about that - load the rounds straight (minimal run-out) is all I know to do - and in the case of the cast bullet, to have snug fit to the free-bore area.
Partially based on Woodleigh, but also other sources, I had suggested to a new reloader guy to aim for .030" as first amount of "jump" to try - can be some error - .025" or .035" not really going to matter - so long as all are close to the same, and you will likely find it a fussy thing the first time that you try to adjust your bullet seating die to hit "exactly" to the thousandth of an inch, of what you want.
Last edited:
- Location
- Western Manitoba
As far as testing for fit - I notice several of your rifles appear to be Mauser 98 based. If those have original military extractors, you are not going to feed a round into the chamber and close the bolt - the original military design will not let you - the round HAS to come up from below the bolt, in order to "control round feed" - that can be defeated, if someone has ground the leading edge of the extractor claw - that removes material and likely makes that original claw weaker than original design - but then that mod does allow a "single" push-feed type loading.
If that is original extractor - is easy enough to remove the bolt from the rifle, then snap a round onto the bolt face - with the rim behind the extractor claw - it will probably "click" to do so - is typical that the round stays there - then reinsert into rifle and close the bolt. If you have that type of extractor, you ought to know about it. If you wanted to fire "just one round" - you would have to snap that single round into the magazine, then close the bolt - you will "jam" if you put that one round directly into the chamber. Many commercial Mauser types had their extractor modded at factory when they were made - but a subsequent owner may have installed an unaltered mil-surp replacement.
If that is original extractor - is easy enough to remove the bolt from the rifle, then snap a round onto the bolt face - with the rim behind the extractor claw - it will probably "click" to do so - is typical that the round stays there - then reinsert into rifle and close the bolt. If you have that type of extractor, you ought to know about it. If you wanted to fire "just one round" - you would have to snap that single round into the magazine, then close the bolt - you will "jam" if you put that one round directly into the chamber. Many commercial Mauser types had their extractor modded at factory when they were made - but a subsequent owner may have installed an unaltered mil-surp replacement.
Last edited:
One is a Mauser 98 Israeli rebarreld to 308 Nato the other is the Marlin w Belgian FN mauser action. I've read about the extractor mod but haven't checked for it. Ill take a look and also try the taking the bolt out and loading the empty case on the bolt.
from what I understand the chamber size is the same for nato and 308 win. The brass wall thickness is different
from what I understand the chamber size is the same for nato and 308 win. The brass wall thickness is different
Last edited:
Doesn't look like they have been moded. And the bolts on both Mauser do not close with the cz and blr case. The last 1/8 or so is too tight. So will still need the full length sizer. Both Mauser will interchange and close and eject but might be a bit tighter
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Is possible that various molds will throw different diameter bullets - might be maker's tolerances, or the caster's melt temperature or even the alloy that is used - can all make the bullet slightly different size coming out of the mould - is why a "sizer" is so often used with cast bullets - force a cast bullet through and all are the same size. For a 308 Win / 7.62 NATO, would be common to use a .309" sizer, or even .310" in some cases - I suppose some people even go to .311" size. Although I have not done so, is also possible to make cast bullets larger diameter versus "as cast" - by powder coating - but, so far as I know, still need or want to size those bullets - to assure they are actually round, among other reasons - that is often the step where the gas check is applied and crimped tight - also usually when the bullet lube is applied, if it uses that.
Is several sizing systems - Lee and NOE make a push through sizing die that goes on your loading press - with a push rod that goes where the shell holder normally fits - that forces those bullets to whatever size that sizer is - often used with powder coating or a Liquid Alox type lube ("tumble lube"). Lyman, RCBS and likely others, make entire separate machines called a "lube sizer" - need a specific size die and specific bullet nose punch for the bullet that you chose to use - usually that injects lube into the bullet grooves at the same time. I think Star makes or used to make a similar one, except on a Star the bullets go into the sizing die nose first, not base first, like Lyman or RCBS, so a Star usually uses a flat or dome faced push punch. All systems have the capacity to seat and crimp the gas check, although each does that a bit different than the others.
Becomes the issue about how big is the neck part of your chamber - relates to how fat you can size your bullets and still chamber them - was a thought among some to size the cast bullet to the throat size in your chamber - others will advise to size your cast bullet .001" or .002" larger than your groove diameter- those two thoughts might amount to the same thing. Since you are trying to do this for four rifles at the same time - is likely you need to figure out which is smallest chamber neck and load for that - it will then fit in the others.
Last edited:
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Your continuing experience with tumbling bullets has got me scratching my head - bullet holes on target should be round - a bullet should fly pointy end first. Is made to do that by the bullet's spin rotation in flight - so is a function of the muzzle velocity and spin twist rate in the barrel. You can make a bullet tumble by spinning it much too slow - I have seen that with muzzle loader - a lead slug was stuck sideways in plywood target backer board perhaps 100 meters out - I did not see the shot fired - was probably VERY low velocity - and likely fired from an elder 1-38" or 1-66" twist made for round ball - hence would also have been very low rotation speed compared to what that cast slug needed. Each bullet shape is going to have a minimum required rotation to stay pointy end first in air - was of considerable importance to artillery that was firing at stuff miles away - so most that you read - Greenhill Formula, for example - started out as attempt to solve that dilemma for artillery shooting.
Not sure how familiar you are with mechanical things - we are talking VERY HIGH RPM rotation speeds - so a 1-10" twist barrel and 2400 fps velocity - that is 2400 x 12 inches per second - so bullet rotation from that 1-10" twist rate is 2,880 rotations per second when that bullet emerges from muzzle - times 60 seconds per minute, is 172,800 rotations per minute (RPM). My 2001 Chev truck engine is doing about 2,000 RPM at highway speed. Internet says that a turbocharger spins 80,000 to 200,000 RPM - so bullet spin, in air, likely in that range, also.
You can also make a bullet tumble by sawing off the muzzle not straight or square - was done on purpose during Vietnam war - some fighters wanted the FMJ bullets to hit as tumble - did not care about longer range accuracy - wanted close up effect - was considered to deliver much worse wounds when tumbling than when pointy end first on impact - imagine "spraying" full auto firing at unseen assailant - versus deliberate aim to hit.
If you are getting tumbling, my thought is your velocity is inadequate, or your bullet is not getting to spin by the rifling - either worn out or too big - to cause the bullet to "strip" rather than to spin - or your barrel has been sawed off to be crooked to the bore centre line. Things like a ding at muzzle will result in offset pressures on the base /around the base of the bullet when that bullet is released at the muzzle - might "kick" it hard enough on one side to tumble it (?) - but I do not know - I have never experienced that. Just a wild guess, but I suppose it is possible to have enough fouling in there to mostly fill the grooves to about negate any effect of the rifling?
Not sure how familiar you are with mechanical things - we are talking VERY HIGH RPM rotation speeds - so a 1-10" twist barrel and 2400 fps velocity - that is 2400 x 12 inches per second - so bullet rotation from that 1-10" twist rate is 2,880 rotations per second when that bullet emerges from muzzle - times 60 seconds per minute, is 172,800 rotations per minute (RPM). My 2001 Chev truck engine is doing about 2,000 RPM at highway speed. Internet says that a turbocharger spins 80,000 to 200,000 RPM - so bullet spin, in air, likely in that range, also.
You can also make a bullet tumble by sawing off the muzzle not straight or square - was done on purpose during Vietnam war - some fighters wanted the FMJ bullets to hit as tumble - did not care about longer range accuracy - wanted close up effect - was considered to deliver much worse wounds when tumbling than when pointy end first on impact - imagine "spraying" full auto firing at unseen assailant - versus deliberate aim to hit.
If you are getting tumbling, my thought is your velocity is inadequate, or your bullet is not getting to spin by the rifling - either worn out or too big - to cause the bullet to "strip" rather than to spin - or your barrel has been sawed off to be crooked to the bore centre line. Things like a ding at muzzle will result in offset pressures on the base /around the base of the bullet when that bullet is released at the muzzle - might "kick" it hard enough on one side to tumble it (?) - but I do not know - I have never experienced that. Just a wild guess, but I suppose it is possible to have enough fouling in there to mostly fill the grooves to about negate any effect of the rifling?
Last edited:
- Location
- SE corner Sk
If the bullets are tumbeling then the twist rate isn't good for the bullet, if your using a heavier bullet is a slower twist then it won't have enought time to stabalize.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
From ads back in the day - that "micro-groove" rifling used a lot of riflings that were very shallow - was alleged to work "just as good" to spin those bullets. Maybe your rifle is an example where it does not work out as claimed. The number of rifling / grooves should not matter - it is whether they get the bullet to spin or not that seems to be critical. If the micro-groove rifling depth was just barely adequate for the job, when new, then about nothing for fouling or wear would impair it - conventional rifling usually has like .004" deep grooves- I do not know what the "micro-groove" was spec'd at. I have one two groove barrel on a No. 4 rifle - 303 British - it seems to shoot no better or worse than others here with 5 groove barrels. I have had no reason to slug that bore, so I do not know what depth of rifling was used on the two groove barrels.
Go here to read what Internet has to say about Marlin micro-groove rifling: https://leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/microgrove-barrels.htm
Go here to read what Internet has to say about Marlin micro-groove rifling: https://leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/microgrove-barrels.htm
Last edited:
