Proposal - Classifications in FClass at the SPRA - to attract more shooters into LR

[Kodiak99317]

I guess if the winds are a howling or it is raining hard, a guy could do what the HM in the US do, just stand down LOL.
I know a few that will not go to Rattlesnake because of the winds this range usually has

I have been entering all the scores since 2011 for classifications.
I now have 2808 scores entered (my fingers are killing me LOL), this includes all the TR, FTR and FO scores that have been shoot at Nokomis, plus the CFRC scores from 2009.
When I do the classifications, I find the shooter and specify dates greater than 01/01/2011 since it is a 3 year average for classifications.

Here are my results... and I will be placing shooters in these classifications for 2014 unless I'm forced to bump them into a high classification, like Sharon being the only TR SS will be bumped into TR EX in most cases, unless we have some new Greenshoots show up.

FOpen Masters
Lair, Dennis 4.88
Taylor, Glen 4.87
Rossington, Paul 4.76
McCrea, Tom 4.75
Skjerdal, Keith 4.70

FOpen Experts
Pomechichuk, Jerry 4.69
Dalgleish, John 4.68
Lepine, Kevin 4.68
Waldner, Cal 4.65
Minish, David 4.58
Closen, Ken 4.53
McClean, Darrell 4.48
Skafel, Orrin 4.46
Zulak, Murray 4.43

FOpen Sharpshooters
Rowe, Brian 4.36
Kanak, Mike 4.31
Steuart, Triant 4.16
Skafel, Sylvia 3.16
Carriere, Rick 2.74

FTR Masters
None

FTR Experts
Hamilton, Barry 4.68
Spenst, Darcy 4.625
Minish, David 4.57
Wosrsley, Brian 4.48
Archer, Brian 4.46
Helland, Mark 4.43
Watts, Bill 4.42

FTR Sharpshooters
Lochell, Chuck 4.39
McInnes, Jim 4.27
Pickering, Shawn 3.61
Pickering, Kassie 3.43

TR Masters
Jmaeff, Peter 4.93
Nelson, Ken 4.91
Dawson, Ron 4.86
Sloane, Murray 4.76
LaLear, Frank 4.74
Grant, Darrell 4.72
Papasderis, Peter 4.7

TR Experts
Frost, Stan 4.67
Hulbert, Gord 4.65
Kaczmarski, Leonard 4.65
Suttil, Neil 4.63
Kachmarski, Alex 4.62
Marsh, Perry 4.59
Chapman, John 4.57
Uhrich, Dennis 4.56
Luchuck, Dale 4.54
Michel, Marv 4.54
Kashmarski, Rob 4.47
Potter, Doug 4.44

TR Sharopshooters
Kashmarski, Sharron 4.21

I have a couple of bad 600 yds matches and that dragged my average down some but they stayed in the calcs. Any more bad 600 yd score with the 6BR will drag me into Expert LOL.
I asked that question since everyone had a very bad day. Winds and rain make it hard for the TR shooters to hold and everyone had issues seeing thru their sights.
It was not a day to be laying on the line, dripping wet LOL.

My miostake on Billy, he is in Expert!
BTW, there were 101 HPS shoot as well in this time period out of 1880 attempts (number of score entered from 01/01/2011) by the shooters.
That is about 5%

 

[prairieguy]

Keith,

Is it possible to move down in classification? I thought once you moved up you remained there even if you had a bad year.

Also, where's my ranking? I know I did not get to Nokomis this year but you should have enough scores from 2011 onward if you include the westerns.

 

[Kodiak99317]

I did not include the Westerns Les. Plus these are only 300M to 600 figures. Mid Range classifications. Since we had no class in Canada(pun intended) , you are were you are LOL.
You will have to come out more often and shoot with us LOL. And like I stated in a earlier post in this thread, your NRA card will be excepted by me for putting people in classes.
I have their NRA classification site book marked on my BlackBerry too so I can look it up from our range, but you will have to know your NRA number LOL or a have the card with you.

 

[scout]

Was surprised to Bill Watts fall from FTR Master to FTR Sharpshooter as well, This will not make him happy if he comes to Nokomis.

Always happy to shoot at Nokomis - especially the 2012 Westerns!!! Haven't been there too often recently outside of the Westerns would be my excuse.

 

[ONT0001]

Hi Keith,
What does the number value represent? I know the US uses a percentage.Is this a #x20 to achieve %?
Am hoping to get a clear understanding to be able to further discuss this for PRA/DCRA implementation.
Thanks
G

 

[Kodiak99317]

The number is the shooters average score value out of a possible 5. If what a percent, divide the number by 5, ie 4.7/5=94%

Master is 5.0 to 4.7
Expert is 4.69 to 4.4
Sharpshooter is 4.39 and under
Green shoot is a new shooter, 1st year in the game.
This follows the exist TR classification system.

Page R5/4, item 5.04 (9 c.) of the DCRA rule book

 

[prairieguy]

Was surprised to Bill Watts fall from FTR Master to FTR Sharpshooter as well, This will not make him happy if he comes to Nokomis.

And this is why we need to figure out how to incorporate long range scores. Scout took home hardware from Raton as one of the top 1000 yd shots int he world. Scout, please don't take this the wrong way, you do not belong in sharpshooter class. You belong in Master.

 

[Kodiak99317]

Bill has only shot at Nokomis on 2009 and again once in 2011 so his average is 4.42 for all his scores

I guessing he has an Expert classification in the US, if it is Master, I'm sure he will inform me LOL
Original calc was from dates greater than 01/01/2011 omitting the FF days back in 2009 ...
As you can see, since 2011, he only did SS scores 209/250=0.836*5=4.18 which is really a Sharpshooter, but he belongs in Expert or above so I corrected his classification above by allowing the 2009 scores, thus updated it to a 4.42, Expert

This is not right bending the rules but will make an exception for billy I guess and to keep Les happy after all if I don't he could make life hard on me LOL

 

[ONT0001]

Hi Keith,
The following is from the NRA F Class Rules book on F Class levels for classification
Table III
Individual F-Class
High Master................................................ 98.00 and above
Master............................................................ 96.50 to 97.99
Expert ............................................................ 94.00 to 96.49
Sharpshooter.................................................. 91.50 to 93.99
Marksman......................................................... Below 91.49

Could we not use the same percentages rather than the somewhat lower scale you have worked out .
Since TR and F Class are really 2 separate events,I see no purpose following the TR Classification System percentages.
US master Class begins at 96.5% or 4.825 (it worked either way divide by 5 or multiply by 20)
You have Master Class starting at 94% which is what is considered US Expert Class.
Just another idea to consider when developing.
thanks again for all your work
Gord

 

[scout]

And this is why we need to figure out how to incorporate long range scores. Scout took home hardware from Raton as one of the top 1000 yd shots int he world. Scout, please don't take this the wrong way, you do not belong in sharpshooter class. You belong in Master.

Thx Les - I'm having a chuckle with this on how the stats are working out (goggle dreaded tomato addition). This is actually the trouble with the US system and how rankings are gained - I agree with Stan P that if you're shooting at the World Level, everyone is a Master Class (yep Keith, I'm an Expert on the US NRA system). It takes about 2 years to develop a F-Class shooter to a strong competitive level, given support and good competition. If you have a bad year (which 2011 I recall was a reloading hell year for me), results will slip. Over time, it will average out. I suggest we look at how IPSC manages their classification levels as well.

 

[Kodiak99317]

Gord, I know what US system breakdown are for FCLASS and have for years, but again they shot string and we shot pairs, and this is why they use a high percentage breakdown IMO.

I will stick to the DCRA TR breakdowns until the DCRA changes their rule book and add FCLASS breakdowns for both pairs and string fire, i also know that TR is holding game and we are supported.

Be happy that we are at least starting down the road to allow the fclass classifications. It allows the shooters that are not winning a chance at some prizes, and to set goals like moving up into a high classification. If we follow the US, it will make it harder to be a Master in pairs fire.

Plus, this way I can use the same script to classify my TR shooters being statistics person for our PRA, which I'm. They too are in my database.

Finally, I was going to add the Western regional into it as well but since we used NRA targets since I could not get ICFRA targets, this would not be right either. I will add the scores fired by the Apra when they used the SPRA Northstar range due to their road closer for the provincial match a few years back.

 

[NormB]

Finally, I was going to add the Western regional into it as well but since we used NRA targets since I could not get ICFRA targets, this would not be right either.

Keith,
The Eastern Regionals, Nationals, and ORA are not using ICFRA targets. They are using modified DCRA long range targets with 1/2 min centers (Talk to Scott). I assume similar for the Mids. These are available and I would suggest all Canadian matches ( East and West) be shot on the same targets to facilitate record keeping and shooter classification.

NormB

 

[FTRRookie]

I would suggest all Canadian matches ( East and West) be shot on the same targets to facilitate record keeping and shooter classification.

This is a great point Norm; having some standards around which targets are in use would certainly help in making sure that the classification system is doing what it was intended. One of the discussions that Barry and I were having was whether or not to move to the ICFRA target for all Regional and National matches, in light of the fact that were are working towards the 2017 FCWC. My thought is that this classification system would also be helpful as an analytical tool for those charged with selecting who will be participating on international teams. Perhaps Bill and Eric could weigh in on that?

Scott

 

[prairieguy]

The AFRA just ordered a huge run of ICFRA targets. We're not going back to DCRA centres. The ICFRA targets are the way of the future. They are the world standard and are similar to the NRA targets which our shooters see frequently in their cross border shooting trips. Most guys here who travel to shoot other places shoot more often in the US than at other Canadian ranges.

 

[Kodiak99317]

I agree we you two about stand target faces but it is in the rulebook somewhere that tha DCRA has adopted the ICFRA target (back around 2008 or 2009) and since I could not get ICFRA targets from the DCRA, I got NRA targets for the Westerns in 2012. My thought was also to get our Cdn teams use to the small V bull for the World's in Raton last year, a 5" vs a 6"V Bull at 1000 yds. These were also used in Wpg last year and the Apra used ICFRA style targets as well to my knowledge in 2011. Not sure what the BPRA plans are for the up coming Western's but I think they too use ICFRA style targets.

 

[peacefrog]

Please DO NOT follow IPSC ways of doing things!

IPSC has gotten out of hand with classes, when the gun that started it all is relegated to 1911 "Classic" division. KISS, this is the right method to follow. It's impossible to control factors unseen, bullet weights, barrel twists, and mods. Yes it would be great to keep it fair across the board and have people play by the rules, but lets face it someone will always try and game it. Look up IPSC Lawyers! I have been shooting precision and would like to compete in F Class as well.
I'm shooting a .260 Rem, totally NOT factory, so I will end up in F Open (right?), I'm okay with that. I will end up shooting with more experienced shooters, and I will learn from them and become a better shooter faster, sign me up!

 

[ONT0001]

I guess this is my point. Until a uniformity exists the equality of the classification system requires sectioning.... Pairs VS String and DCRA vs ICFRA vs NRA Targets and Yards vs Meters.
At present what is controllable is the "uniformity" of targets as Yards/Meters , string and pairs will most likely always be with us.
I know you've done you work Keith and understand the need for "ease of use" in a system encompassing TR, FTR and FO. I see your point regarding % String vs Pairs.

The ideas I've noted are in the hope that whatever system for classification that is developed, would be Nationally uniform and thereby hold it's value across the country.
As F Class faces the variances throughout the different Nations involved, it really would ultimately be that the ICFRA World body develop an international accepted system.
In the meantime ,lets see what can be done to get all PRA's and DCRA on the same page.

 

[rnbra-shooter]

The Eastern Regionals, Nationals, and ORA are not using ICFRA targets. They are using modified DCRA long range targets with 1/2 min centers (Talk to Scott). I assume similar for the Mids. These are available and I would suggest all Canadian matches ( East and West) be shot on the same targets to facilitate record keeping and shooter classification.

This is a great point Norm; having some standards around which targets are in use would certainly help in making sure that the classification system is doing what it was intended. One of the discussions that Barry and I were having was whether or not to move to the ICFRA target for all Regional and National matches, in light of the fact that were are working towards the 2017 FCWC.

While it would be nice if the same target was used everywhere I don't think it's worth fussing over too much. I would suggest that the ~20% difference between shooting on a DCRA F-Class target vs. an ICFRA F-Class target is a smaller variable than one particular day (or relay!) versus another.

I agree with Dan that setting mid range only as the classification does not reflect the entire picture,
and having both mid range and long range classes will work for most situations.

Gord I think you're reading something here which I did not intend to write. I did not intend to suggest that a classification system using only short+mid range was a deficient one - rather, I wanted to point out that for slings-n-irons shooting it was a good way to assess a shooter's holding ability, and a good way to (mostly) keep out the effects of the shooter's wind reading skills and a number of common equipment deficiencies. That's not necessarily better or worse than a system based on long range scores. Depending on what you want to measure, long range scores might be a better or worse way to make the measurement.

Keith you asked about what DCRA would do if there were a bad (weather wise) period. Firstly, the agg is large enough that half a day of bad scores won't have *too* big an effect on an agg that is fired over five days. Also, everybody (to a certain extent, though far from equally!) will get the hit from the bad conditions, and since it is a *relative* ranking system that is partly taken care of. And finally, a shooter's classification is based on results from three years of shooting, so things roll along mostly OK. It is not a perfect system, but it works about as well as any classification system can be expected to.

Something to be careful about with a system such as NRA-US's which uses fixed pre-published scoring levels, is that it might end up being too "easy" or too "hard" of a scale. At a glance I would estimate that the NRA's F-Class scale is too hard, and by quite a bit too. Shooting 98% on an F-Class target at long range (that would be a score of 441 out of 450 in a Palma course of fire) is a *very* high score, that would usually only be achievable when conditions are favourable.

A system which ranks shooters relative to each other would take out some of this problem (though it introduces problems of its own of course!).

Keith you wrote:

I guess if the winds are a howling or it is raining hard, a guy could do what the HM in the US do, just stand down LOL.
I know a few that will not go to Rattlesnake because of the winds this range usually has

While I suspect that you wrote it mostly in jest, there is something in there that should be a warning of DANGER to anyone designing a classification system. When I have shot long range iron sight matches in the USA I heard lots of grumbling about High Master shooters being spoilt fussy shooters who were too wimpy to shoot in the wind or the rain. I don't honestly know the depth of truth in that, I know a number of US High Master shooters who are very hardcore, however I do know that this rumour/feeling is VERY STRONGLY felt and believed by many non-HighMaster shooters I spoke to.

Usually ugly rumours like this have some basis in fact. I suspect that the US classification system and it's relatively stringent "cut" levels is having some perverse side effects. For whatever reason, US shooters really value their classification system, and are extremely proud of whatever classification they have been able to attain. The downside of this though is that there is a tendency to make people "risk averse" to shooting in difficult conditions that might bring down their high running average. I have heard US shooters talk about such-and-such being a good match to go to because it is fired very early in the morning and therefore winds are extremely light and so your score will be high and you have a decent chance of setting a national record. This focus on absolute levels of scores does take away, in my opinion, from the approach of shooting as well as is possible in whatever conditions present themselves. Just because wind conditions are HARD and as a result scores are low, does not mean that it was a BAD MATCH and that the shooting was bad. On the contrary, a score of 66 (out of 75) in hard conditions can be a vastly superior result than a score of 75 out of 75 in easy conditions. And while it seems odd to be more proud of the 66 than the 75, it is right to credit the very-hard-fought-66-that-won-the-match as a better shooting performance than the 75 on the easy day.

 

[NormB]

While it would be nice if the same target was used everywhere I don't think it's worth fussing over too much. I would suggest that the ~20% difference between shooting on a DCRA F-Class target vs. an ICFRA F-Class target is a smaller variable than one particular day (or relay!) versus another.

It is impossible to keep national records if regions are shooting on different targets. We currently have 3 styles available. US, DCRA and ICRFA. I would like to see a 1/2 min white center. You know, so that your cross hairs contrast with the aiming point. F-class don't use irons. But Hey, that will never happen especially if we can't even agree among the 3 current faces available..

A national body with regional reps ( DCRA and PROV assns) must decide on which targets Canadians will shoot, enforce it, and keep records.

NormB

 

[scout]

It is impossible to keep national records if regions are shooting on different targets. We currently have 3 styles available. US, DCRA and ICRFA. I would like to see a 1/2 min white center. You know, so that your cross hairs contrast with the aiming point. F-class don't use irons. But Hey, that will never happen especially if we can't even agree among the 3 current faces available..

A national body with regional reps ( DCRA and PROV assns) must decide on which targets Canadians will shoot, enforce it, and keep records.

NormB

For all intents and purposes, the NRA and ICFRA long range targets are going to be the same - records are not decided by the extra 2" on the magpie-3. PRAs all seem to be running their stock out of DCRA targets before going to the more challenging ICFRA - some PRAs have made the jump already, just a matter of time before all are shooting ICFRA. You'll still have a issue with metres vs yards - that won't go away.