Pros and cons of fluting barrel

Blastattack said:
It's simple physics. Any time you remove material you remove strength and rigidity. Fact, end of story, no exceptions.
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There's a bit more to it than that. Remove materials in the right area, and you can, in fact, improve the overall strength and rigidity of an object. Distribution of stresses is paramount!

However, when it comes to rifle barrels, the geometry limits what you can do. In this situation, you cannot add rigidity by removing material. Unless you happen to remove material so exactly that you improve the barrel harmonics, you will see no gain in accuracy. Even then, you will likely see a gain with one particular load, and a decrease with a different load. This is why every gun shoots differently with different loads - its all about harmonics. More than likely you will see an overall decrease in accuracy, if anything.

The best way to flute a barrel without significantly reducing the rigidity is to cut an odd number of flutes. Simple analysis of the moment of inertia shows that you reduce weight at a greater rate while better retaining rigidity of the barrel vs cutting an even number of flutes.

tl;dr - Flutes don't do much for the accuracy, but they look freaking sweet
 
It's been a few days now. Seems I'll have to keep this thread going all by myself. As it's devolved from accuracy to hardness to strength, I kept wondering about the theories on both sides of the "strength" fence, and want to ask , if you take a fluted barrel, born that way from the factory, into your magical shop that can do anything, and fill in the flutes, as in add material, is the barrel getting stiffer or not? It wouldn't weaken it, right? Seems to be if you "remove material" it will weaken, which is not the same as "same amount of steel in a different shape is stronger."
 
Headcase said:
It's been a few days now. Seems I'll have to keep this thread going all by myself. As it's devolved from accuracy to hardness to strength, I kept wondering about the theories on both sides of the "strength" fence, and want to ask , if you take a fluted barrel, born that way from the factory, into your magical shop that can do anything, and fill in the flutes, as in add material, is the barrel getting stiffer or not? It wouldn't weaken it, right? Seems to be if you "remove material" it will weaken, which is not the same as "same amount of steel in a different shape is stronger."
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it sounds like your looking for a "black and white answer"

same amount of steel in different shape = more rigid with flutes.

SO... Bigger barrel with fluted. vs. smaller barrel not fluted (but same by weight or quantity of material) = fluted barrel is more rigid.

By diameter, a fluted barrel of same length and overall diameter to a non fluted barrel = non fluted barrel is more rigid

The opposition being that the machining process of fluting could warp or effect the straightness of the barrel and be less accurate than an unmodified barrel.


Then there is harmonics, effected by the length and weight of the barrel and action/stock, also effected by the size and load fired.

SO... It kind of falls into personal preference as I dont see any new groundbreaking science, its still a grey area.
TWK


edit: dont look at fluting as just removing material, look at it as relocating material (bigger O.D.), which is why I bring up the by weight or by diameter comparison.

When looking at removing material, think of an 4"x4" I beam for strength vs. a solid cylinder (1.5" dia) of same amount of steel, vs. a 4"x4" solid bar of steel. The solid bar is strongest, but the I beam is strongest by weight. Applied to a rifle barrel, heavy is fine for a bench shooter, fluted has its benefits for any time packing that weight is a consideration.
 
cody c said:
.

SO... It kind of falls into personal preference as I dont see any new groundbreaking science, its still a grey area.
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One thing that isn't in a grey area - fluting anything - whether it is a bolt body or a barrel - will never make a rifle more accurate... black and white.
 
Well I guess I might be able to add something about flutes and stifness.

In my shop there are machine tools lathe milling machine tool and cutter grinder shaper etc ,these are very stiff and accurate machines and none of them are fluted :D .
 
coyote said:
Well I guess I might be able to add something about flutes and stifness.

In my shop there are machine tools lathe milling machine tool and cutter grinder shaper etc ,these are very stiff and accurate machines and none of them are fluted :D .
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How many of those milling machines do you carry on day long hikes? :dancingbanana:

Maybe I should convert my junk to 3 phase 480 volt so they are more rigid like the machines in your shop.
 
I think Headcase wanted to keep the thread alive lol, I dont know if fluting a barrel makes it stiffer or if it takes away any accuracy .

But I hear bridgeport is coming out with a new 308 heavy barrel :eek:.
 
Benchrest shooter that have a weight limit for each class they shoot, don't flute their barrels to make weight, they cut them shorter, what does that tell ya ?
 
My short barrelled pistol has never worked better!! does nothing for whats in your magazine or the capacity there of. :D
As Red Green would say "if the women don't find you handsome at least they will find you handy". And if you have one of those new fluted stiff barrel's maybe they will find you both!!
 
JJ-65 said:
Benchrest shooter that have a weight limit for each class they shoot, don't flute their barrels to make weight, they cut them shorter, what does that tell ya ?
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Intersting, and perhaps a good point.

I dont follow benchrest shooting enough to know what the current trends are.

I guess the arguement could be made that manufacturers who sell specific light weight rifles flute them or carbon fiber them as opposed to cutting them down in opposition to your perspective...

And that would be Id guess around half or more of the manufacturers of non bench rest style rifles.

Either way there is no science behind either of our statements.

I think there is not a lot of new information pertaining to the actual benefits of flute vs. non fluting a rifle at this point.

This thread is headed away from the technical direction now I think. Meh.
 
mrgoat said:
My short barrelled pistol has never worked better!! does nothing for whats in your magazine or the capacity there of. :D
As Red Green would say "if the women don't find you handsome at least they will find you handy". And if you have one of those new fluted stiff barrel's maybe they will find you both!!
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Thats Funny! Laugh2
 
For a brief moment I had the mischievious intention of keeping this going for 100 pages, but decided against incurring the wrath of a moderator, or outcasting myself even further. Most of my energy right now is going into keeping the "308 for bear" thread running in the hunting forum. I am not a gunsmith and don't pretend to be one. I used to listen to my dad discuss this stuff with the old guys who used to come around his shop. In WWII he bored and rifled oodles of barrels, and all I have left of that are the stories left over from it years later. In high school I managed to fix an extractor with a piece of broken spring. Surprisingly that lasted a couple of hundred more rounds then broke again. Then I made a zip gun to shoot 22s, and dad flattened that with a hammer, cursing "that is not a gun." I have messed with homemade cannons using sledge hammer heads for the block and scewing in a piece of broken axle for a barrel. Hybrid rifle/cannon things. Ugly and primitive but went bang and stuff flew out the end. Trying to copy a Krupp cannon now, and that's a challenge for me. These days my job spills over into areas of stress and fatigue in metals and hydrostatic testing among other things. I hate math and suck at it, but am so intrigued by physics. When the moment of inertia was mentioned I really hoped it would have gone somewhere, not crashed abruptly like it did. That was the closest this thread came to getting to a "black and white answer." So far the only accomplishment in this thread has been that flutes are not proven to affect accuracy one way or the other. Always hope someone with a BA or MS in some form of mechanical engineering would step up with a "black and white answer." Aren't those the best answers though? Before I bail on this, could anybody who has a hardness tester smack a piece of raw stock, not bored or anything yet, and compare the number to a barrel kicking around your shop? One from Remington or the like, not an aftermarket job. Just to let me know I'm wrong again. Don't hold back....
 
Pros and Cons of Barrel Fluting

Don't flute barrel. Build a finned sleeve that slides over barrel, similar to cooling fins on motorcycle engine cylinders. Press the barrel into the sleeve. Outside edge of fins could be diamond polished to add bling! This finned sleeve barrel will fit my Eliseo tube stock perfectly.
 
Headcase said:
So far the only accomplishment in this thread has been that flutes are not proven to affect accuracy one way or the other.
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You mind hasn't accepted the fact that fluting will never increase accuracy, and at best it will not decrease it?... and the 'not decrease it' is based on the degree of accuracy to start with.
 
guntech said:
You mind hasn't accepted the fact that fluting will never increase accuracy, and at best it will not decrease it?... and the 'not decrease it' is based on the degree of accuracy to start with.
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How many times do you have to make the same stztement in one thread... especially a wrong one... anyone who says fluting will not increase accuracy has obviously never tried to shoot out of an overheated barrel.... fluting the barrel on a rifle increases surface area and dissipates heat better.... it also reduces weight as a bonus... as for rigidity look up a few posts to see what Justben wrote....
 
Chinbullco said:
Don't flute barrel. Build a finned sleeve that slides over barrel, similar to cooling fins on motorcycle engine cylinders. Press the barrel into the sleeve. Outside edge of fins could be diamond polished to add bling! This finned sleeve barrel will fit my Eliseo tube stock perfectly.
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Thankyou. Was going to say the same thing, but I waited for someone else.
If you want to cool a barrel fast this is it.

Fluting looks cool, lessens weight slightly, don't stiffen, don't make anything more accurate or work better. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. :)
 
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