PRS Match CDTSA Milo Range

Idpa does not.

Point is, if it can be done on the range with pistols, rifles are no different.

At what point do people progress to that level of competition if the bar is artificially kept low for the new shooter. Set the bar high, and help the new shooters attain it. Encourage the new shooters to go slower instead of slowing down the experienced shooters.

Otherwise in the search to be inclusive, you will have those that like to run faster and can run faster, running somewhere else.

I'm all for everyone having fun. But that is different for everyone.

It is an overly cautious safety rule. I get that. But don't pass it off as good training. Or a good habit.
 
Cool, I agree with all that you said.
Like I have said, things will get adjusted.... just don't know to what. (Speaking in General terms)
 
I usually hate chiming in on these round about circular debates but here are a few things to think about.

What are you training for? All the talk of about good training this, bad training that. Guys you are shooting a rifle match that is friendly, you aren't preparing for battle.

PRS matches are set up this way for a few reasons. Big one is insurance, they are often on private land and therefore private insurance. The insurance companies dictate empty chamber on movement. A semi with a locked back bolt and mag in is bad voodoo on movement.

Long rifles. In some of the stages you will be performing yoga to get into a shooting position. Long rifles, by the nature of them can be difficult to maneuver into a firing position and pointing them at places other then the downrange berm is a necessity. A trigger getting hung up on a piece of kit is a real possibility. Falling and slipping off shooting platforms is a possibility. While you maybe maintaining good muzzle control in the sense of not pointing it at anyone that round may leave the range if you have an AD/ND. Not all safeties are created equal. Guys like to mess with triggers........

I have traveled south and shot numerous matches where this is the rule. In no way has it lessened the competition or taken away from the enjoyment of the match. Those of you who are piping up and saying it will, I hope you have at least shot one of these matches before you are offering your opinion. If you truly think it will lessen the quality of the match and the level of competition then try and qualify for the PRS finale and shoot against those shooters. It may just change your opinion.

Bottom line is go out and have fun. Training should never allow you to leave a cognitive state, meaning keep it in perspective, it's a friendly match and an enjoyable way to spend a weekend.
 
The safety rules vary with the place the match is held at and still trump whatever is in the PRS rulebook. Some places are ok with large movement with the bolt back, other require you to remove the mag, others will even have range staff carry your rifle. Same goes for the velocity limit. Many places still limit it to 3150 fps. in spite of what the PRS manual says. Always check and see what the match description says the rules are. They will either post it or mail it to you once you register.
 
Cappy said:
I usually hate chiming in on these round about circular debates but here are a few things to think about.

What are you training for? All the talk of about good training this, bad training that. Guys you are shooting a rifle match that is friendly, you aren't preparing for battle.

PRS matches are set up this way for a few reasons. Big one is insurance, they are often on private land and therefore private insurance. The insurance companies dictate empty chamber on movement. A semi with a locked back bolt and mag in is bad voodoo on movement.

Long rifles. In some of the stages you will be performing yoga to get into a shooting position. Long rifles, by the nature of them can be difficult to maneuver into a firing position and pointing them at places other then the downrange berm is a necessity. A trigger getting hung up on a piece of kit is a real possibility. Falling and slipping off shooting platforms is a possibility. While you maybe maintaining good muzzle control in the sense of not pointing it at anyone that round may leave the range if you have an AD/ND. Not all safeties are created equal. Guys like to mess with triggers........

I have traveled south and shot numerous matches where this is the rule. In no way has it lessened the competition or taken away from the enjoyment of the match. Those of you who are piping up and saying it will, I hope you have at least shot one of these matches before you are offering your opinion. If you truly think it will lessen the quality of the match and the level of competition then try and qualify for the PRS finale and shoot against those shooters. It may just change your opinion.

Bottom line is go out and have fun. Training should never allow you to leave a cognitive state, meaning keep it in perspective, it's a friendly match and an enjoyable way to spend a weekend.
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Circle debate or circle ...j***? I can't quite decide.. I agree with what you said though.

Fenceline, what's wrong with being proficient with dropping mags and showing clear? It's not hard, but I see people fumble with it a lot in competition. Same with reloading. It's all good training, even for skilled shooters.

IDPA or IPSCA doesn't shoot at either range. I like the flashy shirts though.

3G does require, at the moment, to show clear before moving. Both pistol and rifle.

End of the day, rules are rules. If you think your opinion can change them, try first tabling them in a respectful manner.

As always, voice of reasoning is my own, not the clubs. Making friends not mandatory.
 
fenceline said:
Idpa does not.

Point is, if it can be done on the range with pistols, rifles are no different.

At what point do people progress to that level of competition if the bar is artificially kept low for the new shooter. Set the bar high, and help the new shooters attain it. Encourage the new shooters to go slower instead of slowing down the experienced shooters.

Otherwise in the search to be inclusive, you will have those that like to run faster and can run faster, running somewhere else.

I'm all for everyone having fun. But that is different for everyone.

It is an overly cautious safety rule. I get that. But don't pass it off as good training. Or a good habit.
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Exactly. The over baring rules are what will make an event like this that has so much potentail, a non-event.

I would like to come, but if its not gonna be any fun, I am not going to drive 7-8hrs to do less than I can come up with on my farm in that time.
 
That's OK and thanks for your opinion. It is a shame that we cant cater to everyone.
Best of luck in your shooting endeavors.
 
onetwentyish said:
Exactly. The over baring rules are what will make an event like this that has so much potentail, a non-event.

I would like to come, but if its not gonna be any fun, I am not going to drive 7-8hrs to do less than I can come up with on my farm in that time.
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And thats the great thing about the power of choice. No one said the rules will be they way they are forever. But for a first match of this kind, I don't think crawling before running is a bad thing.
 
JoKa said:
You guys keep saying IPSC and IDPA....

To shoot IPSC and move with a hot gun you NEED to have your black badge which includes training on how to move with a hot gun.

Matches at CDTSA are NOT exclusive to black badge only. We are trying to get more new shooters that might not have the background or training to safely do that. SO we try to mitigate that chance of an accident by having some additional safety rules.
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IDPA and IPSC are only being sited as examples.
Safety is not mutually exclusive to IPSC or any other gun game. Nothing ground breaking is taught on a black badge, it is common sense, some shooting and the basic rules to IPSC.
As far as safety it is real simple:
1) don't break 90 (keep a grip of your gun, and be cognoscent of where it is pointing while you manipulate it, shooting, moving and reloading on the move), and
2) keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
Putting your finger in the trigger guard while doing a reload, or moving and not engaging a target is going to get you DQ'd.

The rest of ACTS and PROVE are universal.

It is no different than what takes place at current CDTSA matches, with the RO watching the shooter, and specifically, watching the gun.
I have not taken the club holster course, but presumably the safety aspect taught is similar to what other disciplines teach. If it isn't, I'd say there is a bit of a learning curve to be obtained by some of the members who may or may not be running matches.

I would humbly argue that additional ham-stringing is not the answer to safety; it is teaching proficiency, competence and confidence that will ensure people are safe. If you have that and combine it with an appropriate level of oversight and enforcement, your matches will be safe.
 
Cappy said:
Not all safeties are created equal. Guys like to mess with triggers........
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Good point - I would expect the MD would arrange for and account for an equipment check - triggers (if there is a min. Pull weight?) and function checks prior to the match.

Shibby! said:
Circle debate or circle ...j***? I can't quite decide...
If you think your opinion can change them, try first tabling them in a respectful manner.
As always, voice of reasoning is my own, not the clubs. Making friends not mandatory.
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IMHO, I think you are taking some of the comments and opinions expressed in this and other posts a little too close to heart.
There is a decent amount of people with a fair bit of experience offering constructive comments - try seeing it for what it is, and not a personal attack on yourself or others leading these matches or disciplines.
As always your mileage may vary.
 
You've missed my point and reinforced it at the same time.

FYI, our holster course is run by a 30+yr instructor that also teaches black badge and is recognized by a number of different clubs.
 
Open bolt and dropping mags on semis big deal. This is a club level match and generally club level matches don't have equipment checks to verify trigger pull or if safeties have been modified. There is also no qualifying prerequisite training like Black Badge for IPSC. Many competitors maybe highly skilled and experienced and can safely do cart wheels with a long gun with a round in the chamber and the safety off. At the other end of the spectrum are competitors who don't even fully understand how their firearm functions.

Having been a match director for club level pistol, 3 gun, and CQB I have seen some pretty interesting things happen. Competitor inexperience is one reason why pistols are never holstered with a round in the chamber for my CQB matches. There are several Black Badge qualified participants and they don't complain and we don't have to worry about putting a novice shooter in a situation that is beyond their comfort level and that could lead to a mishap.

The is the first PRS style match, the match director can use whatever rules he wants to make it a safe and successful match. Give it a try, if something is not to your liking give the match director constructive feedback. Maybe things will get tweaked if the is an August match, maybe they won't.

Hats off to the match director for pulling this together I am sure there's a significant amount of work being done. I hope I can make it down as I will be working in SK at that time.
 
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Why don't the semi guys just compete with bolt guns and have a level playing field? Are the bolt gun guys supposed to complain that they have to manually cycle a bolt where it costs them time compared to a semi?

Besides, isn't this supposed to be for fun anyway?
 
ivo said:
Besides, isn't this supposed to be for fun anyway?
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Who invited this guy??

Beltfed, I take very little in life to heart. People whining about basic rules and saying a simple requirement will no longer make the match enjoyable bothers me. It's extremely disrespectful to the club and those who put effort and money into making events happen.

The club states everybody is welcome to attend, but for me and the other competitors, please leave that attitude at home. Nothing upsets me more when I'm there till 11:30 the night before and back at 7:30 and I hear: "This is the dumbest stage I have ever seen" from a competitor.. I ask where was he in the planning and set-up to voice his ever so eloquent opinion?
 
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PractiScore does registration and has a precision rifle scoring as well. I have not used the precision rifle scoring but have used others. Takes some playing around to build the stages. Our club actually bought 6 IPads with the intent of using the for pistol matches and 3 gun. Scoring during the stages was easy but the system was new a there were problems syncing them to do stats at the end of the match. Hasn't been much opportunity to get ROs together to learn the system.
 
ivo said:
Why don't the semi guys just compete with bolt guns and have a level playing field? Are the bolt gun guys supposed to complain that they have to manually cycle a bolt where it costs them time compared to a semi?

Besides, isn't this supposed to be for fun anyway?
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Bolt guns gain accuracy over rate of fire. Seems a fair trade to me for PRS.

I dont own any bolt guns.
 
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