Range Report - 8 different 7.62x39 Now 9 types
Shooters ask “How accurate is the CZ858? Or the SKS?” We all know what kind of groups we get, but the question remains “How accurate is the rifle, and how much of the group is actually the ammo?”
To better understand the milsurp ammo and my rifles that shoot 7.62x39 I had a custom rifle built as a test bed, using a Rem788 action and an old 308 match barrel (heavy). To test the accuracy of the rifle, I made up handloads using H322 powder, which is supposed to be good, and 0.312” Hornady soft point bullets (123gr.) and 308 bullets of 125Speer TNT and Sierra 155 MatchKing.
The rifle now has a 24X scope. Off a rest at 100 yards the handloads were all under 1 inch. (0.515” to 0.955”) All were 5 shot groups. I shot about 200 rounds in one sitting. To say the barrel got hot would be an understatement. As you may know, a hot barrel on a calm day makes so much mirage you can't see through the scope. So I bought a battery-powered fan ($14.00 on eBay) to blow air across the barrel. Worked perfectly.
To test the various flavours of milsurp ammo, I shot 10 shot groups. In my experience, some 5 shot groups are good only because the flyers would have been in the second 5 if I had shot a 10 shot group. I think a 10 shot group gives a pretty good indication of the ammo, especially when you can compare all the ammo shot the same way on the same day.
The milsurp shot better than I thought it would. The Polish was terrible (5.25”) but the rest was in the 1.5” to 2.5”range. All milsurp groups were 10 shots except the Federal. I only had 5 rounds left.
Federal white box FMJ 1.165”
Polish 5.250”
Yugo 2.750”
CZ (blue box) 2.370”
Romanian (no red sealer) 2.420”
Romanian with red sealer 1.910”
Russian 1.345”
WPA FMJ 1.150”
Wolf H.P. 1.515”
Reduced charge 2.720"
The WPA FMJ is new non-corrosive ammo. I found a few boxes at a gunshow. Impressive ammo.
The Russian is the stuff LeBaron was selling for $150 a case last year. Glad I bought 4 cases.
The Reduced Charge ammo was Romanian. I pulled the bullet and dropped the powder charge from 25gr to 20gr. This milder ammo cycles the rifle just fine and is good for CQB rapid fire at short range where I don't want too much muzzle flip. Muzzle velocity is about 1,750fps.
I am satisfied that this test is a fair test of the grouping ability of the ammo. The next question is “How does it shoot in a real rifle?” I decided to test it in my CZ858, since it is more accurate than my SKS. The other half of each 20 round box was shot in the CZ858 at 50 yards. I wanted to do it at 100, but found that the SPARC red dot covered the round pistol target aiming mark. At 50 yards the little red dot fit inside the aiming mark perfectly. The aiming resolution was not as good as a scope would have been, but I think it was fairly accurate.
In the CZ test the 50 yard groups (average about 2.00”) were about the same size as the Remington at 100 yards (average about 1.9”). I only fired 5 different brands of the milsurp ammo in the SKS. I wish I had shot the Polish, too, to see if it also shot poorly in the CZ. Maybe next time.
In these pictures you can see the Remington 100 yard group and the CZ 50 yard group with the same ammo.
Edit: A follow up test.
Had a wonderful test session today. Things went as planned. This seldom happens.
The test was intended to determine:
How well can a CZ shoot?
How does the CZ compare to a SKS?
How does it compare to a AR-15/M4?
How do the various milsurp 7.62x39 compare?
Last week I shot all the milsurps I had on had in a heavy barreled bolt rifle with a 24X scope. 10 shot groups are good indicators of performance. The polish ammo was terrible, and the others were all pretty good, with an average group under 2”. The handloads used to prove the rifle all grouped under 1”.
I had intended to shoot the same ammo in the CZ, but the red dot on it covered the aiming mark. This week I switched the sight to a Long Eye Relief 7x scope. This was not as good as the 24X scope on the bolt rifle, but good enough to take good shots. In the CZ at 100 yards the handloads averaged about 3.3”. The milsurps averaged about 3.4”, not including the Polish, which once again was terrible.
100 yard Ammo test Milsurp v. Handloads
Rifle---- Bolt -- CZ Scoped
H'dload 0.5--- 3.3
Milsurp 1.9 --- 3.4
The fact that the Polish ammo did poorly in the CZ, just as it did poorly in the bolt rifle, tells me that the rifle is good enough to tell the difference between good ammo and poor. The test would have been more valid if the CZ had a better scope, but I am very comfortable in saying milsurp ammo is 2 MOA ammo and in a CZ it is 3 MOA for the combo.
I ran a rifle to rifle test at 50 yards because I could get better sight pictures at that distance with the iron sights on my 15” CZ. These are all rifles I have used in CQB. The AR/M4 has the best ergonomics for mag changes, etc., and my rifle has a match trigger which I like. I wanted to see how they all compared on a pure accuracy basis, shooting off a rest. I shot the non-restricted CZ with the scope and then replaced it with the Red Dot (SPARC) that I would use in CQB. Groups were about the same size.
The big surprise was my restricted CZ. It has the 15” barrel. I have removed the open sight and installed a peep. It grouped better (1.44”) than the long barreled CZ with the scope (2.11”) or with the Red Dot (1.98”).
The SKS was a surprise, too. 1.265" at 50 yards with Russian milsurp. The cheap scope ($20) is mounted on the action cover. A bolt is threaded through the receiver walls and cover, replacing the pin. This seems to hold everything solid. I bedded the rifle. This might help.
CQB RIFLES AT 50 YARDS
Restricted CZ with peep sight 1.44"
Non-Restricted CZ with 7X scope 2.00"
Non-Restricted CZ with SPARC RedDot 1.4"
SKS - Russian with 4X scope 1.265"
M4gery 1.2"
Note how the long barreled CZ with a scope did not outperform the short barreled CZ with a peep sight:
And this suggests an SKS can shoot. 50 yards with a 4X scope mounted on the action cover:
Conclusion: For CQB, the inherent accuracy of the rifles is not a big issue. They all shoot well enough to do the job. the big question is - Which one can you shoot best, offhand, including making fast mag changes? For me, I would rank the rifles - M4, CZ and SKS.
Conclusion #2: The WPA ammo (Russian non-corrosive 123gr FMJ) is clearly better ammo than the milsurp. I wish I had bought more of it at the gun show.
Edit: Add this after another test.
Last week I tested my CQB rifles at 50 yards. I was surprised to see my SKS group around 1.25", so this week I tested it at 100 yards.
I got about the same results I have had in past tests - about 5.0".
My recent test of various milsurp ammo did not include any Chinese ammo. Since then a fellow gave me a packet to try.
This ammo is in the paper packet typical of spam-can packaging. There is no labeling on this, so I know it came from a case of milsurp ammo. I do not know if this was a recent purchase or has been in his basement for 20 years. It is a copper washed steel case.
The headstamp is 31 over 71. I assume factory 31 made it in 1971.
To test the ammo I used the rifle I had made for the specific purpose of testing 7.62x39 ammo. It is a Rem788 action, a heavy 20" match barrel and a 24X scope, shot of bags.
I shot some Russian copper washed milsurp ammo for reference and also some mexican match made with a 123gr SP bullet. Testing was at 100 yards.
For the Chinese ammo test, I shot 10 rounds. I think a 10 round group is a statistically valid indicator of ammo. I liked what I saw. No flyers and a decent group.
This makes it one of the better milsurp ammo I tested. The Polish ammo did poorly, and the rest were good, with this Chinese perhaps being the second best.
Milsurp ammo is not used for precision shooting, so the most important criterion is probably price - and availability.
UPDATE - Tried the Can Ammo Dominion Non-Corrosive
I took two flavours of milsurp ammo to the range along with some of the new Canada Ammo Dominion non-corrosive H.P., made in Ukraine. Cases are lacquered steel. The bullet is a lead core hollow-point with a bi-metal (magnetic) jacket.
The Russian milsurp is copper washed cases , FMJ steel core.
The Romanian ammo is brass cases with FMJ steel core.
I wanted to see if the non-corrosive shot any better than milsurp known to be good milsurp. It costs a bit more. I think I paid $250/1,000 for it.
Testing ammo in an SKS is problematic. It does not shoot well enough to reliably differentiate between good and poor ammo. I have a number of SKS rifles and so far as I can see, they all shoot about the same. At my age (I was born before the SKS was designed) my eyes do not do well with open sights, so my “shooter” SKS rifles have a scope, peep sights and a red dot.
For this test I took an old Chinese military SKS with a scope. The scope base is bolted to the receiver, so it is solid and holds zero.
The other SKS is a new one I bought on EE. It is equipped with a Timbersmith laminated stock and a Williams peep mounted to replace the open sight. The stock is very comfortable and the peep worked perfectly. I used this shoot to zero it. It got a lot of comment on the range.
To test the capability of the ammo, I used the heavy barreled Rem 788 bolt action rifle built for the purpose of ammo testing. A 22-250 magazine feeds the 7.62x39 well. It shoots hand loads to about 0.75”
I shot off a rest on a bench at 100 yards. The aiming mark was perfectly suited to the sights and I am comfortable in saying that this is as good as these three rifles can shoot with this ammo.
Tests results:
The Dominion non-corr shot slightly better than the milsurp.
The SKS rifles shoot groups about three times bigger than the bolt rifle. One SKS tends to have wide groups. The other has tall groups. This suggests that if I tweak the bedding a bit, they might do better.
Here are the group sizes, by ammo and by rifle.
Shooters ask “How accurate is the CZ858? Or the SKS?” We all know what kind of groups we get, but the question remains “How accurate is the rifle, and how much of the group is actually the ammo?”
To better understand the milsurp ammo and my rifles that shoot 7.62x39 I had a custom rifle built as a test bed, using a Rem788 action and an old 308 match barrel (heavy). To test the accuracy of the rifle, I made up handloads using H322 powder, which is supposed to be good, and 0.312” Hornady soft point bullets (123gr.) and 308 bullets of 125Speer TNT and Sierra 155 MatchKing.
The rifle now has a 24X scope. Off a rest at 100 yards the handloads were all under 1 inch. (0.515” to 0.955”) All were 5 shot groups. I shot about 200 rounds in one sitting. To say the barrel got hot would be an understatement. As you may know, a hot barrel on a calm day makes so much mirage you can't see through the scope. So I bought a battery-powered fan ($14.00 on eBay) to blow air across the barrel. Worked perfectly.
To test the various flavours of milsurp ammo, I shot 10 shot groups. In my experience, some 5 shot groups are good only because the flyers would have been in the second 5 if I had shot a 10 shot group. I think a 10 shot group gives a pretty good indication of the ammo, especially when you can compare all the ammo shot the same way on the same day.
The milsurp shot better than I thought it would. The Polish was terrible (5.25”) but the rest was in the 1.5” to 2.5”range. All milsurp groups were 10 shots except the Federal. I only had 5 rounds left.
Federal white box FMJ 1.165”
Polish 5.250”
Yugo 2.750”
CZ (blue box) 2.370”
Romanian (no red sealer) 2.420”
Romanian with red sealer 1.910”
Russian 1.345”
WPA FMJ 1.150”
Wolf H.P. 1.515”
Reduced charge 2.720"
The WPA FMJ is new non-corrosive ammo. I found a few boxes at a gunshow. Impressive ammo.
The Russian is the stuff LeBaron was selling for $150 a case last year. Glad I bought 4 cases.
The Reduced Charge ammo was Romanian. I pulled the bullet and dropped the powder charge from 25gr to 20gr. This milder ammo cycles the rifle just fine and is good for CQB rapid fire at short range where I don't want too much muzzle flip. Muzzle velocity is about 1,750fps.
I am satisfied that this test is a fair test of the grouping ability of the ammo. The next question is “How does it shoot in a real rifle?” I decided to test it in my CZ858, since it is more accurate than my SKS. The other half of each 20 round box was shot in the CZ858 at 50 yards. I wanted to do it at 100, but found that the SPARC red dot covered the round pistol target aiming mark. At 50 yards the little red dot fit inside the aiming mark perfectly. The aiming resolution was not as good as a scope would have been, but I think it was fairly accurate.
In the CZ test the 50 yard groups (average about 2.00”) were about the same size as the Remington at 100 yards (average about 1.9”). I only fired 5 different brands of the milsurp ammo in the SKS. I wish I had shot the Polish, too, to see if it also shot poorly in the CZ. Maybe next time.
In these pictures you can see the Remington 100 yard group and the CZ 50 yard group with the same ammo.
Edit: A follow up test.
Had a wonderful test session today. Things went as planned. This seldom happens.
The test was intended to determine:
How well can a CZ shoot?
How does the CZ compare to a SKS?
How does it compare to a AR-15/M4?
How do the various milsurp 7.62x39 compare?
Last week I shot all the milsurps I had on had in a heavy barreled bolt rifle with a 24X scope. 10 shot groups are good indicators of performance. The polish ammo was terrible, and the others were all pretty good, with an average group under 2”. The handloads used to prove the rifle all grouped under 1”.
I had intended to shoot the same ammo in the CZ, but the red dot on it covered the aiming mark. This week I switched the sight to a Long Eye Relief 7x scope. This was not as good as the 24X scope on the bolt rifle, but good enough to take good shots. In the CZ at 100 yards the handloads averaged about 3.3”. The milsurps averaged about 3.4”, not including the Polish, which once again was terrible.
100 yard Ammo test Milsurp v. Handloads
Rifle---- Bolt -- CZ Scoped
H'dload 0.5--- 3.3
Milsurp 1.9 --- 3.4
The fact that the Polish ammo did poorly in the CZ, just as it did poorly in the bolt rifle, tells me that the rifle is good enough to tell the difference between good ammo and poor. The test would have been more valid if the CZ had a better scope, but I am very comfortable in saying milsurp ammo is 2 MOA ammo and in a CZ it is 3 MOA for the combo.
I ran a rifle to rifle test at 50 yards because I could get better sight pictures at that distance with the iron sights on my 15” CZ. These are all rifles I have used in CQB. The AR/M4 has the best ergonomics for mag changes, etc., and my rifle has a match trigger which I like. I wanted to see how they all compared on a pure accuracy basis, shooting off a rest. I shot the non-restricted CZ with the scope and then replaced it with the Red Dot (SPARC) that I would use in CQB. Groups were about the same size.
The big surprise was my restricted CZ. It has the 15” barrel. I have removed the open sight and installed a peep. It grouped better (1.44”) than the long barreled CZ with the scope (2.11”) or with the Red Dot (1.98”).
The SKS was a surprise, too. 1.265" at 50 yards with Russian milsurp. The cheap scope ($20) is mounted on the action cover. A bolt is threaded through the receiver walls and cover, replacing the pin. This seems to hold everything solid. I bedded the rifle. This might help.
CQB RIFLES AT 50 YARDS
Restricted CZ with peep sight 1.44"
Non-Restricted CZ with 7X scope 2.00"
Non-Restricted CZ with SPARC RedDot 1.4"
SKS - Russian with 4X scope 1.265"
M4gery 1.2"
Note how the long barreled CZ with a scope did not outperform the short barreled CZ with a peep sight:
And this suggests an SKS can shoot. 50 yards with a 4X scope mounted on the action cover:
Conclusion: For CQB, the inherent accuracy of the rifles is not a big issue. They all shoot well enough to do the job. the big question is - Which one can you shoot best, offhand, including making fast mag changes? For me, I would rank the rifles - M4, CZ and SKS.
Conclusion #2: The WPA ammo (Russian non-corrosive 123gr FMJ) is clearly better ammo than the milsurp. I wish I had bought more of it at the gun show.
Edit: Add this after another test.
Last week I tested my CQB rifles at 50 yards. I was surprised to see my SKS group around 1.25", so this week I tested it at 100 yards.
I got about the same results I have had in past tests - about 5.0".
My recent test of various milsurp ammo did not include any Chinese ammo. Since then a fellow gave me a packet to try.
This ammo is in the paper packet typical of spam-can packaging. There is no labeling on this, so I know it came from a case of milsurp ammo. I do not know if this was a recent purchase or has been in his basement for 20 years. It is a copper washed steel case.
The headstamp is 31 over 71. I assume factory 31 made it in 1971.
To test the ammo I used the rifle I had made for the specific purpose of testing 7.62x39 ammo. It is a Rem788 action, a heavy 20" match barrel and a 24X scope, shot of bags.
I shot some Russian copper washed milsurp ammo for reference and also some mexican match made with a 123gr SP bullet. Testing was at 100 yards.
For the Chinese ammo test, I shot 10 rounds. I think a 10 round group is a statistically valid indicator of ammo. I liked what I saw. No flyers and a decent group.
This makes it one of the better milsurp ammo I tested. The Polish ammo did poorly, and the rest were good, with this Chinese perhaps being the second best.
Milsurp ammo is not used for precision shooting, so the most important criterion is probably price - and availability.
UPDATE - Tried the Can Ammo Dominion Non-Corrosive
I took two flavours of milsurp ammo to the range along with some of the new Canada Ammo Dominion non-corrosive H.P., made in Ukraine. Cases are lacquered steel. The bullet is a lead core hollow-point with a bi-metal (magnetic) jacket.
The Russian milsurp is copper washed cases , FMJ steel core.
The Romanian ammo is brass cases with FMJ steel core.
I wanted to see if the non-corrosive shot any better than milsurp known to be good milsurp. It costs a bit more. I think I paid $250/1,000 for it.
Testing ammo in an SKS is problematic. It does not shoot well enough to reliably differentiate between good and poor ammo. I have a number of SKS rifles and so far as I can see, they all shoot about the same. At my age (I was born before the SKS was designed) my eyes do not do well with open sights, so my “shooter” SKS rifles have a scope, peep sights and a red dot.
For this test I took an old Chinese military SKS with a scope. The scope base is bolted to the receiver, so it is solid and holds zero.
The other SKS is a new one I bought on EE. It is equipped with a Timbersmith laminated stock and a Williams peep mounted to replace the open sight. The stock is very comfortable and the peep worked perfectly. I used this shoot to zero it. It got a lot of comment on the range.
To test the capability of the ammo, I used the heavy barreled Rem 788 bolt action rifle built for the purpose of ammo testing. A 22-250 magazine feeds the 7.62x39 well. It shoots hand loads to about 0.75”
I shot off a rest on a bench at 100 yards. The aiming mark was perfectly suited to the sights and I am comfortable in saying that this is as good as these three rifles can shoot with this ammo.
Tests results:
The Dominion non-corr shot slightly better than the milsurp.
The SKS rifles shoot groups about three times bigger than the bolt rifle. One SKS tends to have wide groups. The other has tall groups. This suggests that if I tweak the bedding a bit, they might do better.
Here are the group sizes, by ammo and by rifle.
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