Rank the AR Manufacturer

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KevinB said:
Okay now how many of them retired after 20 years of Tier1 SOF service?
Admittedly LAV is a friend of mine, but his personal bearing has no relevance on his experience or perspective on weapons.

LAV is a consultant to Daniel Defense and prior was for HK. Now LAV maybe quite the mercenary, but he will not offer himself up for companies he does not beleive in.
DD has also partnered with Hk for US produced Hk416 parts.
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Fair enough Kev. As usual your diplomatic response commands respect. Perhaps if I knew him on a personal level I would be less inclined to hastily judge him by his outward appearance.
 
heckler said:
...sight recomendation and on of his malfunction clearing exercises.
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Sights evolve and better options present themselves. I don't see that as changing opinions frequently. And weapon manipulations also evolve as new ideas are presented and ways are found to solve problems.

I don't see that as a negative or a problem.
 
edit not worth it.

Also on Optics etc. Keep in mind the Role -- LAV and other will tell you the mission drives the gear.
While he will tell the individual shooter one recommendation, his recommendation for a Soldier or LEO may vary due to the job description.
 
Some companies just 'Do it', they get it done with little fan fair, No Big Name Stars, No Multi-Million dollar Advertising Campaigns.....

...STAG.

I gave a little dig before about the pricing, but the STAG products I have are fantastic.
 
My open apologies to anyone I offended.
Appearance's are important in the marketing and sales world and hence what I was refering to. The guy is a well recognized hero.

I respect the guy for his contributions to the ever developing world of AR's and their accesories. Can the the guy out shoot me....I have not a single doubt he can,he is awsome,I still do not agree with some of his methods. Hell some of my own gear has been developed by him and it works.

I can not find the links I was looking for and do not know how to take something from disk and post here.

Yes....my weight comment was uncalled for, and that is all the crow i will be eating today.
Again my appologies.

Costa and Haley as well good shooters-- yes, salesman--yes
In which order? I think thats obvious
 
Leibermuster said:
Guy honestly this thread is deteriorating rapidly, Larry Vickers is retired....he can eat all he wants and will still do more than 95% on this forum....What does his weight have to do with his ability and expert-ease in regards to making proper AR's, the guy is in the know.

He has been apart more than enough developments projects in his day....

Back to the topic...
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So, which "Top Tier" manufacture would you choose to maintain the purity of the sport? Wait...Norinco? Laugh2 Hey, just kiddin'.

Curious, have you ever handled or shot a DD or Larue AR? Are those even available in Canada right now?

I hate to comment on any manufacturer that I have no direct experience with. I've had no problem with either of my Colts but can't say that regarding the Bushmaster I own. If I ever buy another AR it'll likely be a build so I really can't say what manufactuerer I'd use until I decide what it is that I want.
 
2bad4u2 said:
So, which "Top Tier" manufacture would you choose to maintain the purity of the sport? Wait...Norinco? Laugh2 Hey, just kiddin'.

Curious, have you ever handled or shot a DD or Larue AR? Are those even available in Canada right now?

I hate to comment on any manufacturer that I have no direct experience with. I've had no problem with either of my Colts but can't say that regarding the Bushmaster I own. If I ever buy another AR it'll likely be a build so I really can't say what manufactuerer I'd use until I decide what it is that I want.
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I assume all your questions are directed at me, so all answer them.
If you have the cash someone might be able to get them in for you, and yes DD rifles were available at Questar years back. They brought a few in anyways.

Also I have shot and handled DD and Larue rifles before in the USA, but not extensively and they were older versions. But it appears they have if anything improved so that is my take on those too companies.

With Larry Vickers pushing DD i doubt he would stay around if they were not performing to his level that they should.

But trying a few samples does not indicate a clear picture of the caliber of the company in question either.

As for the Bushmaster I picked up in early 2003, it was of good quality and seemed to have the basics at least done right.The bushmasters i noticed afterwards were not up to the standard mine was at the time, but all that gun is largely replaced now anyways.
 
No a bad attempt IMHO. There are other Tier 1 makers, FN comes to mind as someone above mentioned.

The issue with those in the Tier 2 and Tier 3 brackets is that some manufacturers (DPMS is a good example) make more than one grade of AR15. Some of the low-end DPMS guns (usually those bought affordably and trashed online) are Tier3 - no question - but DPMS also makes better grade guns and even supplies whole guns and spares to several US agencies and police forces.
Their 14.5" AP4 M4 is not a Tier 3 gun and does better on "the chart" than the equivalent LMT (seriously!). Af course, that's not the model people think of when they hear DPMS.

Bushmaster is another example. They make low-end AR15's, but they also make better grade guns and have supplied Blackwater with select-fire M16's in the past.

To further muddy the water, not every maker listed below manufactures AR15 components. Some are merely assemblers. Even Noveske could be called an "assembler" as they don't make a single component - not even their vaunted barrels which are made for them by PacNor.

At the end of the day, almost every maker is capable of producing a decent AR15. Every maker has (and will continue to) produce the odd lemon. What matters is the AR15 you own, how well it shoots and if it's reliable. The roll-stamp on the side should only matter to internet know-it-alls if your gun runs right.

Some makers not mentioned that should be:
-Vulcan (avoid)
-Hesse (avoid)
-NDS (probably tier 1 or tier 2, but they only make retro-M16 clones)
-Model 1 Sales (Tier 2 maybe?)
-POF (some say Tier 1, others Tier 2)

misanthropist said:
Tier 1:

Bravo Company
Noveske
Daniel Defense
H&K
Colt
Knight Armament
Maybe LMT...they are commonly thought of as Tier 1 guns but if you ask, say, Vickers, he will tell you they see more problems with LMTs than anything else on this list (although, no offense koolaid drinkers, Hackathorn had some fairly sharp criticisms of KAC as well)

Tier 2:

Stag Arms
NEA
Armalite?
Rock River Arms
Smith & Wesson
CMMG
Bushmaster?

Tier 3

DPMS
Norinco
Olympic Arms


Guns of which I have no particular in-depth knowledge, but which I can tell you are not tier 1 guns:

Yankee Hill Machine
CORE
Remington
Del-Ton
Ruger
STI
SIG
ATRS



Guns about which I know so little they could be anything from Tier 1 to Tier 50, I have no idea:

Wilson Combat
PWS
LWRCI

Frankly I find it hard to separate Tier 2 and Tier 3...some bushmasters run pretty well and some seem not to run well at all. There are some Tier Z guns that are obviously garbage, but a lot of the 2/3 companies make a range of guns and that is part of the problem...how do you know if you're buying a really good Stag, or one of their mediocre builds? On average Stag seem to be more consistent than most and personally I would tend to equate Stag and LMT, although that is not a popular opinion most places these days. In some ways, the easiest thing might be to say, "here is the short list of Tier 1 guys. Here is the short list of Tier not with someone else's #### guys. Everything in between is a bit of a gamble and occupy a complicated spectrum with a range of capabilities and prices."
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And this post is why Kevin = thumbs up.


KevinB said:
ah the tired old Tiering argument.

Its a tough call to rate guns - especially from the typical sample size of one that most comsumers get.

If you follow the M4 TDP - then Colt wins.
If you follow Mil/Fed Gov Contracts - its gets a little more open

However then you realize that not a single one of those contract models is available to the public.
And that is the rub.

If you look at the bolt carrier velocity of a 16" barrel carbine gas system gun with the same gas port as a 14.5" barrel with a carbine gas system -- hmm what is different here in the speed.
So even if they just change the barrel length (and drop the auto fire control) the gun is a different animal.

End the end of the day, the consumer had to look at his or her own needs (wants) in a firearm and ideally make an informed opinion based on what they have found/experienced.
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Oh, as an aside to those plugging the HK416 - IMHO it's debatable if that (and even some of the newer KAC rifles) are still AR15's at all.

If we limit this to DI guns with the same bolt and FCG as the original Colt pattern AR15 rifles, HK would be out and half KAC's offerings would be DQ'd from this discussion as well ;)
 
Wow claven2 ,

NDS doesn't even build a complete gun, but they are tier1 or 2.

Model 1 sales is "tier 2"?

Noveske says that he makes his own barrels, but that was probably just an old interview.

This thread seems to have kind of turned into a joke thread in pretty short order
 
Lee Enfield said:
Wow claven2 ,

NDS doesn't even build a complete gun, but they are tier1 or 2.

Model 1 sales is "tier 2"?

Noveske says that he makes his own barrels, but that was probably just an old interview.

This thread seems to have kind of turned into a joke thread in pretty short order
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For what NDS makes, they are top tier. But then, they don't have any competition wrt copies of very early Colt rifles. You're right though, they don't make a complete rifle, but do make a LOT more than Noveske! :)

Model 1 Sales is Tier 2 or 3. I put a questions mark because Tier 2 is questionable.

Trust me - Noveske barrels are made in the pac nor factory. Noveske provides the spec, but they do NOT make those barrels. It's a well known fact, interviews aside ;) Some ppl have a broad interpretation of "we make it".

Anyhow, I like my first post in this thread best - and I agree, this thread is a FAIL (and very subjective/divisive)
 
USP said:
Often times people with large amounts on injuries take steroids and pain medications that can cause weight fluctuations over time. Not saying this is the case, but I am puzzled why anybody cares what an industry guy who is effectively retired weighs.
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USP yes i know that one first hand, its sucks, but better then being dead.
Well least thats what my shrink tells me....
bbb
 
2bad4u2 said:
Excuse my ignorance here but why do AR buyers put so much importance on what this Vickers guy has to say? Sorry, I own a number of AR's but the whole cult thing behind them is not something I find interesting or make an effort to keep up on. So, he's just a bought and paid for spokesman who did some time in the military and then the firearms industry?

Personally, I'd be more influenced by the opinions and thoughts of some of the knowledgable members here on CGN compared to someone who had a financial gain in representing a certain brand or manufacturer.
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The average CGN members knowledge is acquired from: Posting on a forum, eating Cheetos, and shooting his SKS once every 10 months.

Larry Vickers knowledge was acquired from (taken from his website):


Military Background

I have been very fortunate to have had the distinction of serving my country with some of the most elite military units to ever exist. This experience has literally made me who I am today and has had an immeasurable impact of every facet of my personal and professional life. I spent over 20 years in the US Army with my entire career in Special Operations. The last 15 years in 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment – Delta, commonly referred to as Delta Force. Prior to that my time in the Army was in Special Forces, including 5th, 1st, 11th (reserve) and 10th Special Forces Groups. I retired as a Master Sergeant.

The high point in my military career was when I was one of 23 members of Delta Force who rescued CIA operative Kurt Muse from Modelo Prison in Panama City, Panama. This mission initiated ‘Operation Just Cause’ and is the first successful hostage rescue operation in modern US military history. This operation has been cloaked in secrecy for nearly two decades. So much so that few inside the US military or even the Spec Ops community even knew about the mission. The veil of secrecy has been lifted with Kurt Muse releasing a book about the rescue mission and his ordeal in Modelo Prison. The title of the book is ‘Six Minutes to Freedom’ from Citadel publishers. It is co-written by John Gilstrap. Be advised to protect individuals still in US Government service many of the names in the book have been changed. I did many things I am very proud of in service of my country but without doubt I am most proud of my participation in ‘Acid Gambit’, the code name for the Modelo Prison rescue operation.

In addition to Panama, I saw service in Desert Storm, Somalia, Bosnia and other places on operations and activities that remain classified. In addition to my time as an assaulter in Delta Force, I spent time in weapons research & development where I initiated several products in use in Spec Ops today (see my products development page) and served as a combat marksmanship instructor training new operational members of Delta. In fact I have trained more Delta and Tier One operators in combat marksmanship skills in the past than anyone in US Special Operations history. This is an accomplishment I am particularly proud of as Delta has earned a reputation second to none in the military shooting arena. I am proud to have contributed to that reputation in a positive way.

Some of my military schools and awards are as follows:

Operator Training Course
Special Forces Qualification Course
Special Forces Military Freefall Course
Special Operations Target Interdiction Course (SF Sniper School)
Airborne School
Infantry Advanced Individual Training
Jumpmaster School
Military Freefall Jumpmaster School

and numerous other military schools and courses.

Awards and badges include:

Bronze Star with ‘V’ device for actions in Panama
Joint Service Commendation medal with ‘V’ device for actions during Desert Storm
Defense Meritorious Service Medal
Meritorious Service Medal
Combat Infantrymans badge
Military Freefall Badge
Special Forces Tab

in addition to other awards and badges.

I have been put in a unique position to be able to pass on some of the lessons learned in an environment with superb resources, excellent facilities, and absolutely first class personnel.

Much of the equipment and techniques used in today’s military environment owes it’s lineage to the organization I worked with for the better part of two decades. I am proud to be a part of that lineage and stand ready, where operational classification does not apply, to pass on lessons learned in blood, sweat, and tears by individuals like myself.
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Yeah....I think I'd rather listen to Vickers.
 
2bad4u2 said:
Excuse my ignorance here but why do AR buyers put so much importance on what this Vickers guy has to say? Sorry, I own a number of AR's but the whole cult thing behind them is not something I find interesting or make an effort to keep up on. So, he's just a bought and paid for spokesman who did some time in the military and then the firearms industry?

Personally, I'd be more influenced by the opinions and thoughts of some of the knowledgable members here on CGN compared to someone who had a financial gain in representing a certain brand or manufacturer.
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because those that know larry know hes not a sell out and would only back a product that was really good, he could walk and have 100 companys asking to sign him up.
Its not all about the money with him, its about the teaching mindset, weapons handeling and kit to those that work at the sharp end.

He has used his time at the sharpend to design some good bits of kit, and training systems.

Its not a fanboy thing, after all, do you think that DD would want a fat has been on staff if he did not have alot to offer.
* not calling Larry fat, hes looking good , and as its been said, hes got issues "most" of use will never understand.
bbb
 
For all of you rushing to put guns into your arbitrary 'tiers', please first step back and define a tier.

I don't think you can. You can judge/rate guns, but it has to be on a well defined set of criteria that would be driven by the purpose for the rifle. Some table of M4C.net isn't it.
 
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