Rank the AR Manufacturer
- Thread starter Voxx Boxx
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Then Why are His Videos and Courses Not Free Then???
You say that jokingly but you've made a good point.
Of course the guy is in it for the money. To say otherwise is foolish and naive. The man deserves to make an income just like every one of us and if he chooses to do so as a representative of a particular company, then so be it. He may very well believe in the products he represents but let's be honest with ourselves here.
Vickers is a celebrity spokesman within his field of expertise. By associating himself with a particular company, consumers who believe in him and his persona either consciously or subconsciously believe that when they buy the company's product, they are equating themselves or connecting to Vickers on a personal level. Marketing psychology 101.
It's hard not to be impressed when reading about Vicker's storied career. He's definitely a guy any one of us would be proud to know personally.
Having said that, that's why I'd put more preferential weight on what other experienced members of CGN had to say. For instance, Kevin Boland was on this site long before he took his job with KAC, if I'm not mistaken. I think the first time I read one of his posts was back around 1996 when he was posting regularly on Sniper Country.com. He's made considerable contribution to this site and others and I'd be more apt to take his advice than someone whom I only knew of as a company spokesman.
- Location
- East ontario
Then Why are His Videos and Courses Not Free Then???
I said hes not " ALL" about money, did not say he did not want to make money from his skill set.
bbb
Jwirecom109
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rural Alberta
who wouldn't want to make money to compensate them for the time and effort put into training and informing people? You can do it for free if you don't mind doing low budget youtube videos that no one takes seriously.
Takes money to make these things people.
Well, I'd say then that a good approach would be to listen to Kevin's opinion on Mr. Vickers, who he knows personally, I believe.
Everyone I have met who knows him says the exact same thing: "if you think he would recommend a ####ty product for money, you don't know him at all."
Every single person has said that, no exceptions. So as far as I'm concerned, if he says it, it may not be exactly 100% right, because he's still just a human. But it's 100% true as far as the LAV is concerned, and not many people are in a position to argue with him on the basis of experience, that's for sure.
I'll rank from my experience from ARs that I own, or have owned (from best to worst). I have owned multiple ARs in the brands below.
1) Norinco (F$%^ those who are too stuck up to realize that it works flawlessly and has been the most accurate I've owned, even though she isn't pretty).
2) PWS
3) Stag
4) Armalite
5) Bushmaster
I did have an LMT that I didn't get a chance to shoot before I sold it (MWS). It's quality would put it at the top of the list, but accuracy and reliability trump fit and finish, so I can't rank it accurately.
1) Norinco (F$%^ those who are too stuck up to realize that it works flawlessly and has been the most accurate I've owned, even though she isn't pretty).
2) PWS
3) Stag
4) Armalite
5) Bushmaster
I did have an LMT that I didn't get a chance to shoot before I sold it (MWS). It's quality would put it at the top of the list, but accuracy and reliability trump fit and finish, so I can't rank it accurately.
Thanks to those who answered the actual question.
Regarding Mr. Vickers: he's awesome, he accepts money for his work and endorsements like sane people do, and his integrity is not in question.
Regarding classification according to tier--yes it's subjective and tiers are somewhat arbitrary, but it's human nature to group things together. Most people who have worked in a large department have grouped their co-workers or direct reports: best, adequate & last resort. Likewise, most people will put cars manufacturers into various tiers such as luxury, mid-range and budget. Nobody needs to get offended if their favorite is low on someone else's list--this is just about opinion and observation.
Please continue to provide your insight regarding AR ranking and grouping--I enjoy reading your posts.
Regarding Mr. Vickers: he's awesome, he accepts money for his work and endorsements like sane people do, and his integrity is not in question.
Regarding classification according to tier--yes it's subjective and tiers are somewhat arbitrary, but it's human nature to group things together. Most people who have worked in a large department have grouped their co-workers or direct reports: best, adequate & last resort. Likewise, most people will put cars manufacturers into various tiers such as luxury, mid-range and budget. Nobody needs to get offended if their favorite is low on someone else's list--this is just about opinion and observation.
Please continue to provide your insight regarding AR ranking and grouping--I enjoy reading your posts.
As to the post above.
So there is nothing wrong with sub-contracting? Or sub-letting machining out??
That is why we send production to China. They build it to spec and we buy it cheap.
The argument being;
He is not a manufacturer because he does not own the companies that produce the materials for his product.
He purchases product then assembles it for sale.
If I hired ATRS to build me a rifle, can I call my self a 'High-End' Rifle manufacturer if I sell it?
So there is nothing wrong with sub-contracting? Or sub-letting machining out??
That is why we send production to China. They build it to spec and we buy it cheap.
The argument being;
He is not a manufacturer because he does not own the companies that produce the materials for his product.
He purchases product then assembles it for sale.
If I hired ATRS to build me a rifle, can I call my self a 'High-End' Rifle manufacturer if I sell it?
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
As to the post above.
So there is nothing wrong with sub-contracting? Or sub-letting machining out??
That is why we send production to China. They build it to spec and we buy it cheap.
Huh,
John chooses top American machine shops to help with machining, I don't see a problem with that. Taking an impossible work load on yourself and still trying to maintain quality and performance standards would be tough. Espessially with the small outfit he has. To me its a brilliant idea, and the product is still made in the USA.
The components are of his design and spec, does that not count for something? If these particular parts and barrels weren't developed by Noveske they wouldn't exist. Surely that counts for something...
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
I try not to come off as overly defensive, but it does drive me nuts when people post on this topic as if they know what they're talking about when clearly they're talking out their ass. Especially when they keep doing it over and over...
For the AR newbs .. could anybody please explain what the differences between Tier 1, 2 and 3 manufacturers actually mean for the rifle?
Are there differences in function, reliability, looks ... ? What does it mean for me if I have a Tier 1 gun vs a Tier 2 gun? What will the Tier 2 gun not do ?
cheers
Matt
Are there differences in function, reliability, looks ... ? What does it mean for me if I have a Tier 1 gun vs a Tier 2 gun? What will the Tier 2 gun not do ?
cheers
Matt
OK, in a nutshell, they are meaningless. It would be different if there was a clear definition and everyone could agree on who belong in what tier, but that is fantasy talk.
What it's supposed to mean, basically, is:
Tier 1: Good enough to supply to premiere military units or special forces, has the very best of manufacturing specifications, fit, finish, reliability and durability. Emphasis is on the best possible AR and not a price point or cost effectiveness.
Tier 2: A good, solid AR. Typically these makers will make production runs for foreign military sales or domestic law enforcement. The rifles are good solid platforms, but are not necessarily 100% complaint with the M16 technical data package or might cut a few corners to sell an affordable rifle. Examples might include substituting commercial receiver extensions to save cost, parkerizing the barrels with the gas blocks already installed, not having chrome lined chambers, using roll pins in the FSB instead of taper pins, using 4140 barrel steel instead of mil spec 4150 formulations, etc.
Tier 3: These are the budget AR15's where low cost is the most important factor. Fit, finish and sometimes reliability are sacrificed to get inexpensive product out the door. Examples are Vulcan or Hesse using plastic receivers, Olympic using cast receivers, DPMS using rifle height gas blocks on M4 clones, Anything Norinco... you get the idea.
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