Results of a M14S/M305 Kabboom

bclinehand said:
I believe this incident was caused by a combination of the improperly sized case not being able to enter the chamber
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Correct on that point


bclinehand said:
The extremely cold temperature the firearm was being fired in causing the lubricant to sieze up and the firing pin stick in the forward position either because the pin itself siezed or something in the trigger group siezed
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Not likely to occur one of several features of the bolt bridge
1: it will only allow the firing pin to function at a set or determined timing squence IE: battery or lock up
2: it draws back the firing pin before the bolt locks up this is designed to prevent a stuck firing pin from discharging this rifle
 
Canuck44 said:
"The firing pin does not have enough inertia /energy to fire the cartridge by it self that's why when you pull the trigger the hammer hits the firing pin setting off the cartridge"

I just took a empty deprimed 30-06 case and inserted a plastic insert, designed for dry firing pistols, into the primer pocket. I then inserted the .30-06 case into the chamber of my M 14. The case protrudes about a half inch.

I the dropped the bolt and there is a clearly fully indent where the firing pin hit the insert. It was a ful indent not just a small pin mark. I know the firing pin is designed not to have enough inertia to cause ignition when the case fully chambers and in most cases it probably doesn't have enough inertia to fire them off when out of battery BUT given soft primers or a primer not seated properly and you have the makings for an out of battery firing caused from the free floating firing pin. To test this further once the weather improves I will take an unloaded .30-06 case with a Win primer seated and do the test at the range.

When events like this happen it usually isn't just one thing that creats the problem but a series of events that normally don't present a problem by themselves but when they all come to gether you get an unexpected bang when all should have been quiet.

Take Care

Bob

Take Care

Bob
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I have the seen the same thing on my AR no suprise there BTW I use match primers in my AR and M1A

The result in this case is that it was an out of battery firing that human error was a contributing factor not properly sized case and due to poor manufaturing standards the bolt safety bridge was incorrectly machined
 
Prediction:

I'm betting on a bolt that failed to close completely on a handloaded cartridge combined with a rifle design/condition/spec that allows said rifle to fire in this position. If part 2 didn't exist, part 1 wouldn't matter.If part 2 does exist you are a high primer or grain of sand away from carrying your parts home in a pail. Wear your glasses.
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Conclusion:



Savage said:
The result in this case is that it was an out of battery firing that human error was a contributing factor not properly sized case and due to poor manufaturing standards the bolt safety bridge was incorrectly machined
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It would seem to me that modding the bolt by putting a spring against the pin to prevent the free floating pin from striking the primer ( in or out of battery) would be prudent. As I have just received my m14 and haven't tore it down yet, I leave those who know a hell-of-alot more than me this question - is it possible?
 
squid1230 said:
It would seem to me that modding the bolt by putting a spring against the pin to prevent the free floating pin from striking the primer ( in or out of battery) would be prudent. As I have just received my m14 and haven't tore it down yet, I leave those who know a hell-of-alot more than me this question - is it possible?
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You don't need to. Just keep the inside of the bolt clean and use harder primers when reloading and you'll be fine.
 
my m14, cocked and bolt fully forward, when i pull the cocking handle back at diifferent lengths, it will fire, is this a safety concern or normal, could a smith fix this??
 
Thank you, thank you Savage...I wish I could have made it to the Calgary clinic to meet you.
I've read all 184 posts from Dogleg's thread, as well as the 47 posts here on your analysis.

A lot of (possibly life saving) material was brought forth here, and we should ALL be thankful to guys like Dogleg for coming forth with his admission of a "catastrophic" failure...Savage for stepping up to examine the gun objectively and without prejudice and post his findings...and all the other CGN'ers who posted concern and intellegent replies without sniping.

And to think I was gonna test loads with only neck sized cases, PLUS using a powder load from a wrong page (bolt gun load) of a data book....
Thankfuly I stopped, read, reread, waited for the outcome, then decided I'm a REAL noob at reloading.

I do have to say though, it gave me pi$$ shivers when I saw the picture of the imprint of the bolt in the receiver heel....sheeee-yit
 
Savage...

Just out of curiosity did you boroscope the chamber? I'm guessing that even if you did given the nature of the event there would be no way to tell if there was crud in there that could have caused the case to hang up?

Rather than waste a bunch of time on trying to get a spring in the firing pin channel I'd suggest ensuring the chamber is squeeky clean and use small base full length dies for reloading.
 
Brobee said:
Savage...

Just out of curiosity did you boroscope the chamber? I'm guessing that even if you did given the nature of the event there would be no way to tell if there was crud in there that could have caused the case to hang up?

Rather than waste a bunch of time on trying to get a spring in the firing pin channel I'd suggest ensuring the chamber is squeeky clean and use small base full length dies for reloading.
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No not yet the guy who has the Borescope is at EAW show so this weeked or next week .I have arranged to have the action and the bolt MPI and X Rayed
 
Savage said:
I have the seen the same thing on my AR no suprise there BTW I use match primers in my AR and M1A

The result in this case is that it was an out of battery firing that human error was a contributing factor not properly sized case and due to poor manufaturing standards the bolt safety bridge was incorrectly machined
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You have managed to scare the heck out of me. I will now have to scrutinize all my .308 reloads. I too have an M-14.
 
Phoenix-2009 said:
You have managed to scare the heck out of me. I will now have to scrutinize all my .308 reloads. I too have an M-14.
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Can't be too careful with your reloads. As a n3wb reloader and M14 owner, I've been ultra careful in terms of using only CCI primers and seating them as deep as they'll go, checking everything twice etc., but that stuff about flashover scared me; I'd reloaded a batch of 100 with 38.5 grains of H4895 as a reduced recoil load for my wife and last night I started getting nervous as hell about them.

Turns out that I'd forgotten that I'd already looked into this. Good thing that I kept detailed notes. Lee's reloading book says that it's only a concern with loads of slow powder reduced by more than 25% in large rifle cases, and H4895 isn't that slow and 38.5 is only an 11% reduction, so I'm not going to be pulling that batch.
 
rdelliott said:
Can't be too careful with your reloads. As a n3wb reloader and M14 owner, I've been ultra careful in terms of using only CCI primers and seating them as deep as they'll go, checking everything twice etc., but that stuff about flashover scared me; I'd reloaded a batch of 100 with 38.5 grains of H4895 as a reduced recoil load for my wife and last night I started getting nervous as hell about them.

Turns out that I'd forgotten that I'd already looked into this. Good thing that I kept detailed notes. Lee's reloading book says that it's only a concern with loads of slow powder reduced by more than 25% in large rifle cases, and H4895 isn't that slow and 38.5 is only an 11% reduction, so I'm not going to be pulling that batch.
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i loaded some with 38, 39 and 40gr of imr4895 in ivi brass(thicker), was gonna test them out this morning but it was raining, so i took the sks gong plinking instead,
let us know how that load works out
 
matty86suk said:
my m14, cocked and bolt fully forward, when i pull the cocking handle back at diifferent lengths, it will fire, is this a safety concern or normal, could a smith fix this??
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I just tried with mine and it does the same thing when the bolt is 3/4 forward and further. I also would like to know if this is a concern.
 
Been reading a bit on this thread, and I don`t think anybody mentioned this.

Out of curiousity, I put a primer in an empty case and left it sticking out a little. If I chamber it and let the bolt slam home, without firing the gun, then cycle the round out. Every time the primer has been seated by the firing pin. I can't see a non seated primer beening a real problem.
This was once fired brass to make sure the primer was held tight.

My question is were the bullets crimped so they couldn't be slamed back into the case on the loading cycle? Did they have a cannalure? Was the case crimped on the cannalure?
Could this cause a compressed load, and extemely high pressure?
Were the reloads FMJ or soft points? If they were soft points they have a tendence to jam. Perhaps it jamed, got slammed into the case and caused a compressed load while still loading into the gun?

Auto-loaders should be crimped to avoid this. Even if there is no cannalure on the bullet.
From the Hornady reloading handbook:
Cartridges in semi-automatic firearms are stripped from a magazine, shoved up a feeding ramp and pushed into a chamber in a few hundreths of a second. There is considerable pressure placed on the bullet, creating the possibility of pushing it deeper into the case, perhaps dangerously raising the pressure.
 
I'll say it one last time..... beat my head in for it if you want to BUT..... every single person thinking of reloading for this rifle should get a copy of Jerry Kuhnhaussen's 30 calibe service rifle shop manual...... then.... you won't have to listen to opinions of others on this subject..... YOU WILL KNOW without a doubt what is safe and what is not.
Jerry talks about primers being the cause of more kabooms than any other cause.


this is THE authoritive work on the M14...... and if your rifle blows up from reloads..... don't blame china..... don't blame buddy on CGN that told you it was o.k. ..... blame youself cuz you chose not to get the correct information from the best source there is.


Also..... anyone in the lowermainland who is concerned about this silly topic of reciever safety bidges being out of spec can come see me, for free, and i'll use the proper tools to guage your reciever, bolt and firing pin

we really need to put this to bed.
reloader error causes a Kaboom and we all start runnin aound like the sky is falling.... this topic is just so......... internet :D :D
 
Yes, i think this was reloader error. You don't have to beat your head for me.

The hammer will fall on an M-14 with the bolt pulled back a bit. The firing pin can't move forward because it is blocked by the bridge. Take your rifle apart leave the bolt in and rotate it from locked to unlocked and watch the pin. It shouldn't be able to move forward until the lug enguages the reciever. If it does throw it away.
 
Trent Johnston,
If I would have known about that test and that it is necessary on a newly manufactured rifle I would have thrown it away.
Calling it it reloader error is speculation. It's difficult to rule out after the fact, but it is still is speculation. That the action opened is not speculation.
 
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