Self-Defense Ammo: The Search for the Magic Bullet

[Pure Energy]

No the goal is always to stop them.

I didnt say anywhere that the goal was not to stop them.

It just so happens that a head shot is a better way to stop people, as it results in a high number of immediate stops.

I realize that but like I said, 20 feet in a half second is fast. From everything I have read and been told. Center of mass is the target.

The fact that it is lethal is pretty much incidental, unless you are executing someone.
And stopping power is pretty much a non factor in handgun use, because there are not alot of handguns that can stop a person quickly all of the time. Those that might are pretty big and not too practical.

Lethal or not, the goal is to stop them. It can take several seconds for a person to die after being shot, depending where. If they have a knife and are 20 feet away, thats not alot of time to shoot, but plenty to get stabbed or slashed, especially if they suprise you and have their knife ready. All I was trying to say in my first post is that there is such a thing as a shock factor. Which is one of the reasons JHPs are better, they hit harder and are more lethal than one hole straight through.

 

[texdores]

COM vs. Pelvic area hits

I read an article in Combat Handguns that recommended a .45 and not to shoot for COM. They found that there is more disabling or stopping probability in shooting at the pelvic region. Much more damage that is less lethal and chances are they won't be walking or paying any attention to anything else after they get hit. Depending on the situation of course.

If two shots in the COM have no effects, go to plan B. Not many survivors when hit between the headlights with an appropriate caliber. Would you shoot a lion, for example, in the hip area to put it down? Didn't think so.

 

[Dave L.]

And stopping power is pretty much a non factor in handgun use, because there are not alot of handguns that can stop a person quickly all of the time. Those that might are pretty big and not too practical.

We've all heard those campfire stories about the proverbial big bastard on PCP failing to be stopped by a nine millimetre to the torso. Then again we've also all heard the stories about people 'going down as if struck by lightning' by X cartridge.

I think the awful truth we're facing here is that there is no 'one-stop' cartridge available to us in a compact, concealable package. There's too much information mixed with misinformation to form a solid ground. I guess the best we can hope for in the event we'll have to fire is that we'll be one of the lucky ones and the perp we'll be facing will suddenly realize he's been shot, figure his game is over, and go down screaming.

That said I still can't imagine even a guy on PCP continuing his attack or even limping off after being hit by a high-explosive shell fired out of one of those 120mm smoothbore tank guns. But then again a 120mm tank shell is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a cartridge for a compact, concealable personal defense firearm.

- Dave.

 

[redleg]

I didnt say anywhere that the goal was not to stop them.



I realize that but like I said, 20 feet in a half second is fast. From everything I have read and been told. Center of mass is the target.



Lethal or not, the goal is to stop them. It can take several seconds for a person to die after being shot, depending where. If they have a knife and are 20 feet away, thats not alot of time to shoot, but plenty to get stabbed or slashed, especially if they suprise you and have their knife ready. All I was trying to say in my first post is that there is such a thing as a shock factor. Which is one of the reasons JHPs are better, they hit harder and are more lethal than one hole straight through.

This is what you said, " Yes but your talking strictly killing a person. The point here is defensive ammo, which dosent necessarily mean killing them."

I guess it wasn't that clear, but I don't think anyone is talking about strictly killing anyone, they are talking about practical effectiveness.

Center of mass is a good starting point, but if your attacker is closing on you that fast, the head starts looking quite a bit larger at contact ranges.

Yes it can take people a long time to die, and many times they don't. If you want shock factor keep shooting until there is no longer a threat. Six well placed 9mm RN bullets offer much more "shock factor" than one wild 45ACP HP.

Handgun cartridges, even when using HPs are not miracle workers. The value of a HP is a lrger wound track and therefore a faster bleed out. This will never acheive your requirement of an instant stop. Shock power is an imaginary concept.

 

[acrashb]

Shock power is an imaginary concept.

Bingo.

What we're talking about is using lethal force. Relatively more effective lethal force is relatively more effective at stopping someone from doing whatever they shouldn't be doing.. But "shock power", "stopping power", etc, just don't mean much with handgun ammo.

 

[Pure Energy]

This is what you said, " Yes but your talking strictly killing a person. The point here is defensive ammo, which dosent necessarily mean killing them."

I guess it wasn't that clear, but I don't think anyone is talking about strictly killing anyone, they are talking about practical effectiveness.

Center of mass is a good starting point, but if your attacker is closing on you that fast, the head starts looking quite a bit larger at contact ranges.

Yes it can take people a long time to die, and many times they don't. If you want shock factor keep shooting until there is no longer a threat. Six well placed 9mm RN bullets offer much more "shock factor" than one wild 45ACP HP.

Handgun cartridges, even when using HPs are not miracle workers. The value of a HP is a lrger wound track and therefore a faster bleed out. This will never acheive your requirement of an instant stop. Shock power is an imaginary concept.

The point with a pistol is to stop them.

You didnt read my first post, in which I said the exact thing you did ^, and like I said in the one you did read, stopping them doesn't necessarily mean killing them. Other than that I agree with everything you said here except shock power.

To get an attacker to stop, other than death, which does not happen as often as one might think with pistols, there are factors that come into play. Bloodloss, pain, physiological shock, and psychological shock are all factors that would cease an attacker in their agression. Would you agree? If so then you might understand what I am saying, that a JHP will provide better physiological shock, which is a separate factor from bloodloss, in stopping an attack, than a FMJ would. So no matter how you look at it its there. However small it may be.

 

[Cocked&Locked]

You didnt read my first post, in which I said the exact thing you did ^, and like I said in the one you did read, stopping them doesn't necessarily mean killing them. Other than that I agree with everything you said here except shock power.

To get an attacker to stop, other than death, which does not happen as often as one might think with pistols, there are factors that come into play. Bloodloss, pain, physiological shock, and psychological shock are all factors that would cease an attacker in their agression. Would you agree? If so then you might understand what I am saying, that a JHP will provide better physiological shock, which is a separate factor from bloodloss, in stopping an attack, than a FMJ would. So no matter how you look at it its there. However small it may be.

Really depends on the hollow point dosen't it? If the bullet in question dosen't have enough penetration to reach a vital structure, no, it's worse then the round nose. Most quality hollowpoints today are designed to achieve between 9-14" of penetration and do the job well. Some of the first one wouldn't reliably go 6" without coming apart or stopping...overexpansion is not your friend most of the time either. Bullet aside, and not saying a good bullet design dosen't help, it does, but with any firearm, and more so with handguns, shot placement is more important then what you shoot them with....a 44 mag in the arm is less effective then a .22 short in the eyehole....