Self-Defense Ammo: The Search for the Magic Bullet

[acrashb]

it is exactly that the ability to stop something in its tracks and in order to do that the projectile has to expell its energy into the object

No it doesn't - and the previous billion posts have clarified this - the projectile has to damage or destroy, by crushing or cutting, CNS tissue in order to "stop something in its tracks". This is done by bullet placement coupled with penetration and permanent wound track width sufficient to maximize the change of a CNS hit.

The next best thing is rapid blood loss, but people can and have continued to fight with the hearts destroyed for more than ten seconds.

 

[Suputin]

to answer the question about "stopping power"

it is exactly that the ability to stop something in its tracks and in order to do that the projectile has to expell its energy into the object....since a 9mm does not expand it keeps most of its kenitic energy (not getting into the math of that) but when a round is heavier and slower it dumps its keneitc into the target....stopping it

Kinetic energy is a HORRIBLE way of evaluating the effectiveness of a bullet. As an example, consider a bowling ball, rolling at 1 mph. It has a huge amount of kinetic energy compared to a bullet and it will "dump" all that KE when it bumps up against you. Now consider the bullet will much less KE that blows through your chest without exanding, leaving a caliber sized hole and wasting a large portion of its puny KE out your back. Which one will be the more effective "stopper"?

Dumping KE into the body is not the point of a bullet. The single most effective way to stop a person is to punch a large hole all the way through them, destroying tissue and disrupting blood vessels so they lose blood very quickly.

I would say that for a pistol the best ammo in a 9mm is a lighter hollow point...say like in the 120 gr's.....has very high velocity and then expands suddenly and has pretty good penetration BUT lighter bullets need closer targets also

Velocity and expansion are not the only parts of the equation that are important. Lets take your ideal bullet and shoot it at a 300 lb meth-head wearing a bulky winter jacket and heavy sweater and lets have him turn sideways to you at the moment of the shot so the bullet hits his upper arm first. Just how far do you think that high velocity wonder bullet is going to penetrate through all that stuff between the muzzle and his vital organs? And what good is a bullet that doesn't reach the chest cavity because it expanded rapidly and dumped all its KE into his sweater and bicep?

A bullet requires both expansion and penetration which is why the heavier, slower rounds are actually better. They expand just as big as the faster stuff yet retain the ability to penetrate much better.

 

[marc4311]

obviously there are a hundred different variables but im not taking every one of them into consideration....if i were to it would be a 4 page post.

 

[Cocked&Locked]

Cocked&Loaded...

since a 9mm does not expand it keeps most of its kenitic energy (not getting into the math of that) but when a round is heavier and slower it dumps its keneitc into the target....stopping it

I'm assuming your refering to hardball only here, and even there your on shaky ground. As pointed out above, energy transfer is a very shaky representation of "stopping power". The functional difference between a big heavy 45 hardball and a small lighter 9mm hardball are very small, neither one makes a very effective wound channel due to the profile of the bullet, and both over penetrate...

Your comparison illustrates momentum, rather then KE, and again, it's not indicative of stopping power, or as was pointed out above, we'd all just carry bricks around to throw at attackers. As AcrashB pointed out very accuratly, short of destroying the lower brain stem, or the upper spinal column, no handgun (and most rifles) will not reliably knock someone down, people can and do continue to make a pest of themselves with hits to the heart, frontal lobe/upper brain and anywhere else on the body.

I do believe that high veloticy/violent expansion or fragmentation offer a much more traumatic injury then a large sub sonic bullet, and that there is a shock/damage delivered to the CNS by the hydrostatic effect, esp. in the upper thoratic cavity, but short of a few magnum calibers, no handgun does this very effectively as the best velocities are still under 1500 fps, compared to double that with rifles

 

[torontogunguy]

Just had someone I know send me an FBI report on this topic. It is far too grizzly to post online here unless the moderators wish it to be. It includes morgue photographs and xrays, etc.

I am sure it is floating around on the net. Worth the search.

 

[Holmes]

the magic bullet,that would be the 1 that drops the assaliant,for me,i have a mag full of black talons

 

[marc4311]

acrash, cocked&loaded and suputin!

read this article, it proves what I was saying about handgun bullets and its very interesting

http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

 

[marc4311]

actually sorry acrash,

thats wht i was saying....I was talking about damage without killing a person. In my post i you dont want to make the person bleed too much to cause death cause that puts u in jail (i think, in canada anyway).

Anyway its an interesting read for everyone, have fun

 

[Cocked&Locked]

you do realize that that report was written before any modern bullets where on the scene right? And that it is largely disscredited? The FBI has a very poor track record of picking service ammo....

And I suspect that suputin has forgot more then most of us will ever know, he has a very interesting line of work

 

[marc4311]

imnot saying anyone is right or wrong nor am i questioning anyones credentials..wht im saying is from my education (engineering, and medicine) and reading reports besides this one shows that penetration is the #1 thing.

Although one my my friends was in the french foreign legion maybe 5 years ago and he would rather have a 9mm for a pistol.

It was all just for discussion not to start an argument

 

[Sinasta]

actually sorry acrash,

thats wht i was saying....I was talking about damage without killing a person. In my post i you dont want to make the person bleed too much to cause death cause that puts u in jail (i think, in canada anyway).

Anyway its an interesting read for everyone, have fun

That is the dumbest thing I have ever read. Maybe you should go around shooting guns/knives out of peoples hands while you're at it.

 

[woodchopper]

stopping power,

The british and US calvary did a series of test to decide what sort of ammo had the most stopping power. They used various dead and not yet dead animals to do the testing on and the result that they came up with is that bullet weight was more important then the other factors.

The British went with a 200grn 38S&W

the US calvary wanted something that could still be used to kill the enemy's horses so they decided to develope the 45ACP


My choice is the .357mag with handloads using 180grn XTP

 

[Cocked&Locked]

stopping power,

The british and US calvary did a series of test to decide what sort of ammo had the most stopping power. They used various dead and not yet dead animals to do the testing on and the result that they came up with is that bullet weight was more important then the other factors.

The British went with a 200grn 38S&W

the US calvary wanted something that could still be used to kill the enemy's horses so they decided to develope the 45ACP


My choice is the .357mag with handloads using 180grn XTP

Keep in mind that all the tested ammo in this series of tests was sub-sonic, which has a huge impact on how it inflicts damage.....I'd go with your 180's to hunt bear, but they'll over penetrate anything else under 50 yards.....I'd stick with the 125's, 158 max, and still be really happy...(and they're easier to control to boot)

 

[Cocked&Locked]

imnot saying anyone is right or wrong nor am i questioning anyones credentials..wht im saying is from my education (engineering, and medicine) and reading reports besides this one shows that penetration is the #1 thing.

Although one my my friends was in the french foreign legion maybe 5 years ago and he would rather have a 9mm for a pistol.

It was all just for discussion not to start an argument

No problem, we're all hear to learn, and are tossing in what we've been led to believe, experienced or thought, same as you......

You need enough penetration to reach vital structures of your target, more then that is a waste and possibly dangerous

 

[Pure Energy]

There is no such thing as "shock power" or "knockdown power". Bullets pierce a hole through the body and cause bleeding which results in death. Bleeding is the result of the disruption of tissue through both the permanent cavity and the stretch or crush effects of the temporary cavity.

I disagree. There is such a thing as knockdown power and that is exactly what you want in a defensive pistol round. 80% of people shot with handgun rounds survive. This is why most people use JHP ammunition. It expands and transfers more kinetic energy into them. Thus stopping them more effectivly. If you were to use ball ammo its gonna make a small hole in your attacker and it will keep coming at you. Like you said animals die from bleeding. Its gonna take a while with a few small FMJ holes to bleed out. The point with a pistol is to stop them.

 

[acrashb]

transfers more kinetic energy into them. Thus stopping them more effectivly.

In a word, "bull". HP's work better, generally, because the larger diameter of the permanent wound cavity results in a) more rapid blood loss and b) a higher chance of cutting or tearing CNS tissue. Kinetic energy is merely one part of the terminal ballistics equation.

 

[prproulx]

"You can also kill someone by doing CPR compressions on them when there's nothing wrong with them."

This is why we arrive to find people trained in CPR doing nothing. There is NO evidence that doing CPR on a person who's heart is beating can kill them. It has always been a SUPPOSITION in medical circles.

Yes it's true a sharp blow to the sternum can send a heart into fibrillation, and eventually to ceasation. I don't know if a bullet can do this.

For the readers, the 2005 CPR guidelines say that if a person is not breathing you must start CPR. No pulse check is required except for health care professionals.

 

[Cocked&Locked]

In a word, "bull". HP's work better, generally, because the larger diameter of the permanent wound cavity results in a) more rapid blood loss and b) a higher chance of cutting or tearing CNS tissue. Kinetic energy is merely one part of the terminal ballistics equation.

I'll add that hollow points also create a much larger temporary stretch cavity that can inflict trauma to other organs outside of the bullets direct path....and the higher the velocity, the higher the hydrostatic compression tranfered. Largely dellicate organs like liver/kidney/spleen really don't resopond well to this and on rupture can cause a rapid shock effect....

remember kinetic energy is the ability to do work, not the work itself..if you shoot through the target (10mm, 44 mag, 9mm or 45 acp hardball, 357 over 158grn.... 38 spl round nose...) you've wasted all the potenial you had....

 

[Pure Energy]

In a word, "bull". HP's work better, generally, because the larger diameter of the permanent wound cavity results in a) more rapid blood loss and b) a higher chance of cutting or tearing CNS tissue. Kinetic energy is merely one part of the terminal ballistics equation.

Yes but your talking strictly killing a person. The point here is defensive ammo, which dosent necessarily mean killing them. When you consider that an average person is going to cover 20 feet in a half second thats not alot of time to line up a headshot to completly kill them. An attacker isnt going to start running at you from 100 feet away, they want to surprise you, which usually means close proximity. That is why stopping power IS a factor with defensive pistol. The point of it is to cease the violent and agressive behaviour, basically stop the attacker before it hurts you, whether it results in death or not.

 

[redleg]

Yes but your talking strictly killing a person. The point here is defensive ammo, which dosent necessarily mean killing them. When you consider that an average person is going to cover 20 feet in a half second thats not alot of time to line up a headshot to completly kill them. An attacker isnt going to start running at you from 100 feet away, they want to surprise you, which usually means close proximity. That is why stopping power IS a factor with defensive pistol. The point of it is to cease the violent and agressive behaviour, basically stop the attacker before it hurts you, whether it results in death or not.

No the goal is always to stop them. It just so happens that a head shot is a better way to stop people, as it results in a high number of immediate stops. The fact that it is lethal is pretty much incidental, unless you are executing someone.
And stopping power is pretty much a non factor in handgun use, because there are not alot of handguns that can stop a person quickly all of the time. Those that might are pretty big and not too practical.