Self-Defense Ammo: The Search for the Magic Bullet

HP is not illegal for pistols. There used to be restrictions on importing it for pistols, not anymore.

Tightgroup: Some people on this forum carry firearms as a part of their job. As such they are generally trained about where to shoot people if it's required. I don't know, maybe that makes them "chatterboxes, and elite combat veterans" in your eyes:rolleyes:

As to why these studies come from the manufacturer, it's simply because they are trying to sell their product. Generally I don't take anything written in a gun rag as any sort of indication of how something performs.
 
350 Mag said:
TERRIBLE ARTICLE...

They left out one of the BEST self defense cartridges.....10mm Auto.

Both EAA and Glock have factory loadings in CCW size weapons.

Wonder why they failed to mention it?
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Commercial availability? I realize its not un-common, but even in the USA, I doubt you'd find the shelves of Wally-World stocked with it.
 
Pay particular attention to point #4....


THE KEYS TO SURVIVING LETHAL FORCE ENCOUNTERS

1. Cultivate a warrior mindset.

2. Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice.

3. Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system.

4. Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
 
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350 Mag said:
TERRIBLE ARTICLE...

They left out one of the BEST self defense cartridges.....10mm Auto.

Both EAA and Glock have factory loadings in CCW size weapons.

Wonder why they failed to mention it?
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Probably because there are no viable factory loadings for it. No Gold Dots, No Ranger SXT-T series, no Federal HST. Not a single serious modern self defence bullet selection to choose from.
 
350 Mag said:
TERRIBLE ARTICLE...

They left out one of the BEST self defense cartridges.....10mm Auto.

Both EAA and Glock have factory loadings in CCW size weapons.

Wonder why they failed to mention it?
Click to expand...


? I would guess that you love your 10mm then? Other than the fact that very few, commited people with big hands can shoot it well, that the recoil is excessive for a defenisve arm, and that not that many handguns are chambered for it, yes its good. There is a reason the FBI dropped it. 98% of people place shots significantly better with other calibers and an accurate shot that hits is better than a really really powerful one that misses....
 
10mm Auto's are smaller diameter than .45 ACP and they're slower velocity too aren't they? Doesn't the power chart go something like:

9mm - .40 s&w - 10mm - .45acp

I left out the .45gap because I have no idea where it fits in. I guess conventional thinking is that if the .40s&w is too weak then go to .45acp?
 
acrashb said:
10mm Auto: 200gr at 1180fps = 236000 'power factor'
45acp: 230gr at 850fps = 199500 'power factor'

Plus the 10mm is 'snappier' in the hand because of the increased velocity.
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'Power Factor' is an IPSC thing and doesn't really apply to self defense ammo.

Muzzle Energy (which would relate to penetration) is more appropriate.

To calculate it the formula is: ME = 1/2 Mass x velocity squared.

Therefore, any change in bullet mass has a linear effiect in ME but any change in velocity has an exponential effect.
 
So using acrashb's numbers and Windows Calc.....
10mm Auto: 200gr at 1180fps = 139,240,000 ME
45acp: 230gr at 850fps = 83,087,500 ME

The muzzle energy formula increases the gap between 10mm and .45acp by an additional 25% in favor of the higher velocity 10mm.

I'm going to have to check my reloading manuals when I get home and make sure acrashb didn't feed me numbers from the low end of .45acp and the high end of 10mm. ;)
 
Dragoon said:
'Power Factor' is an IPSC thing and doesn't really apply to self defense ammo.

Muzzle Energy (which would relate to penetration) is more appropriate.
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Since we are discussing usability of cartridges in the context of recoil, you would be incorrect. "power factor" is gun-speak for momentum, and that's what pushes the gun back in your hand, not kinetic energy.

More momentum makes the gun harder to control, hence the FBI dropped 10mm per C&L.
 
200grain .45acp runs at about 1000fps. Here is a good compilation of one shot stop data: http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp

Here is a handy calculator: http://www.handloads.com/calc/

I wish we could all have and shoot 10mm pistols... But the reality is that .40s&w is good enough for paper, and if you need protection from animals... well I would opt for a double action 44mag or bigger.

That and besides glock, there realy isn't any double stack 10mm autos' out there.
 
They left out one of the BEST self defense cartridges.....10mm Auto.
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Aaaah the 10mm, this is the most versatile semi-auto cartridge out there. Can be loaded down to .40S&W and up to almost .41 Magnum. Throw it in a sub-gun and you have a perfect combo. I don't think the 10mm will ever dissapear, maybe never be super popular but it has a special niche and can do so many things well it'll never die.

I read an article way back where they tested bullets on live goats. 10mm Magsafe's came out on top if I recall correctly.
 
.41 Magnum

Gunslinger said:
Aaaah the 10mm, this is the most versatile semi-auto cartridge out there. Can be loaded down to .40S&W and up to almost .41 Magnum. Throw it in a sub-gun and you have a perfect combo. I don't think the 10mm will ever dissapear, maybe never be super popular but it has a special niche and can do so many things well it'll never die.

I read an article way back where they tested bullets on live goats. 10mm Magsafe's came out on top if I recall correctly.
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The venerable .41 Magnum... now there's one that had potential as a real stopper in the handgun category!
 
promac said:
Hollow point rounds are not illegal in Canada. I believe they might be illegal for the average person to import though. Target Sports has some 9mm hp subsonic rounds for sale - $175 for 500 rnds and .357 magnum hp rounds - I forgot the cost.
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Hollow Points, seems to me in my distant past... used to be called "DUM DUM" bullets by the vets from WW1 I used to speak to. Terrible carnage and so the civilized nations got together and decided that they would only try to kill each other off with full metal jacket round nose bullets in future. I think that there was a long time where only LEO's were permitted to use hollow points. That is, from my understanding (With a grain of salt) no longer the case. Hollow points are legal now.... we are legally permitted to kill each other off with whatever the heck we want now!!! Hurrah!

On a more serious note... take a look at handloads.com and Marshall & Sanov's publication on STOPPING POWER....

Here's the scoop. 45ACP Federal 230g HS (Hydra Shock) resulted in 96% single shot stops from their detailed study. 9mm Federal 124g. HS resulted in only 83% one shot stops.

There is an interesting article in this month's COMBAT HANDGUNS magazine regarding the use of handloads and defending oneself in the event of being charged with murder or manslaughter instead of being hailed a self-defense hero..... worth reading. They advise very much against using a hand load for self defense. You will have to read the article.

This (my comments) are not to be misconstrued as an endorsement or encouragement to carry or CCW stateside and ESPECIALLY NOT in Canada, where it is generally illegal. PLEASE! This is merely an interesting discussion and makes me wonder why NATO has gone from .45ACP to 9mm for their standard sidearm again.

Now... this brings up the topic of FRANGIBLE ammo for self defense. You know, that's the stuff that breaks up into wee bits and creates multiple wound channels to stop the perp. A great load for LEO's to be sure. I can't get my mind wrapped around doing that much carnage to another human being.... but logic will prevail. It is necessary when it is your life or the perp's, right? Here is the biggie in my opinion. Frangible ammo presents a significantly lower risk to bystanders precisely because the round breaks up on entering the perp.'s body; i.e. it does not exit and enter someone else. Less richochet activity as well, for those (RARE!!) misses.

My $.02 worth guys.

Regards,
 
because if your a little high and hit the abdominal area and sever the intestinal track, the chances for survival are only 50% due to infection.
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Only if you don't go to the hospital for a week. Peritonitus won't be a factor if you get medical treatment in a reasonable time, which I'd assume you would having been shot in the guts.

I didn't bother to read all the BS but everyone knows the #1 man stopper is the .357 mag w/remington 125 gr jhp. Enough said.
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Well maybe you should. While the 125gr .357 Mag is very impressive on the surface, it doesn't penetrate worth a damn. Wounding requires both expansion AND penetration to be most effective.

Not every lethal force encounter results in a frontal chest shot. What happens if you have to shoot someone from the side and they are wearing a heavy jacket and thick sweater? Will that explosive little 125gr JHP penetrate through the jacket, sweater, arm tissue and bone and then through several inches of chest tissue to be able to reach any of the important organs?

The answer is no it won't which is why your choice is not the best for a lethal force encounter.

this brings up the topic of FRANGIBLE ammo for self defense.
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The single most interesting thing about frangible ammo is its ability to penetrate kevlar, where conventional bullets will not.
 
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