Self-Defense Ammo: The Search for the Magic Bullet

Now for something completely different.

Ok. Let's get serious here. If I ever have an encounter of the third kind I intend to shoot for the toes.... ever see that guy with the red beard that Bugs Bunny keeps shooting in the toes? ('something...Pete') Watching him hop around holding his foot breaks me up.

Think he uses some HUGE calibre cuz Pete can poke Bugs' carrots into the end of his revolver.

THAT's the calibre I want to shoot from now on.

And carrots aren't all that much more expensive than the real stuff.

They aren't very accurate though... Pete shoots off a hundred rounds from his hundred round revolver and misses Bugs with each and every shot. Good thing though... otherwise we'd have no sequel Bugs Bunny cartoons... they'd have to replace him with Daffy and the only thing Daffy can do is spin his beak.

Torontogunguy




Suputin said:
Only if you don't go to the hospital for a week. Peritonitus won't be a factor if you get medical treatment in a reasonable time, which I'd assume you would having been shot in the guts.


Well maybe you should. While the 125gr .357 Mag is very impressive on the surface, it doesn't penetrate worth a damn. Wounding requires both expansion AND penetration to be most effective.

Not every lethal force encounter results in a frontal chest shot. What happens if you have to shoot someone from the side and they are wearing a heavy jacket and thick sweater? Will that explosive little 125gr JHP penetrate through the jacket, sweater, arm tissue and bone and then through several inches of chest tissue to be able to reach any of the important organs?

The answer is no it won't which is why your choice is not the best for a lethal force encounter.


The single most interesting thing about frangible ammo is its ability to penetrate kevlar, where conventional bullets will not.
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The author of that article must be using some strange math to rate .380 and .45 Colt the same.

WTF was he using, some kind of firearms related Magic 8 ball to come up with this stuff?
 
Well if the cops think frangibles won't penetrate kevlar then good on 'em. They also think every gun in canada is in the registration system and that will keep them safe when entering a house where no guns are registered.

The 9mm 85gr frangible in that test is likely the 85gr Winchester Ranger and they are right it won't penetrate but there are others that will. Also note that one of those tests was done on a level 3A vest which is higher than most people can comfortably wear.

I did penetration tests on an ex-RCMP issue level 2A vest and as can be seen by the following image several frangible rounds penetrated along with the CF issue 9mm ball. Rounds that did not penetrate are labelled as such otherwise everything else did penetrate.

Vest%20labels.JPG


FWIW the subsonic .30 cal penetrated both sides of the vest at 100 yds and then blew through a 2x4 and kept going. Now THAT is penetration!
 
torontogunguy said:
Ok. Let's get serious here. If I ever have an encounter of the third kind I intend to shoot for the toes.... ever see that guy with the red beard that Bugs Bunny keeps shooting in the toes? ('something...Pete')
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Yosemite Sam. Pete would be Black Pete, Walt Disney's oldest surviving character. :D
 
TightGroup said:
I still think that the best bullet is the person who can shoot straight :)

I am more afraid of the .22 in the hands of a bullseye shooter than of a .44 mag in the hands of chuckie the cheese brain crake head..

One of my fav shows is the wild video segment, and you see soo many clips where the bad guy and leo exchanged a couple of hundred rounds each with no one being hurt and this at very close range. The camera always seems to take it in the chin ;)

My point is and this is against some doctrines that i have seen, technology or in our case equipement either be it ammo, gun or whatever will not make you a better shooter..

The best cartridge is the one that is shot on target ! While some cartridges maybe more efficient than others, there all lethal in the hands of a good shot..

I truly recommend practice and lots of it,

My 2 beans

TG
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Your suggestions should be considered as "Classic",
as it is absolutely true, that a great amount of practice, with speed
and under time-pressure will always be the instant "peacemaker"
Never mind the caliber.
If anyone can shoot as well as "Jeff Cooper" and " Bill Jordan", he (or she )would be
the most deadly adversary even with a .22 cal pistol/revolver.
Where they would aim ?? Needless to say...
Well, practise to hit at 10 Meters a 4 inch dia. paper disc within One second.
Then repeat it on 2-3 targets with 2-3 seconds limit. If you can............
You will have no enemies .... But..... practice, practice,practice !!!
 
torontogunguy said:
Hollow Points, seems to me in my distant past... used to be called "DUM DUM" bullets by the vets from WW1 I used to speak to. Terrible carnage and so the civilized nations got together and decided that they would only try to kill each other off with full metal jacket round nose bullets in future. I think that there was a long time where only LEO's were permitted to use hollow points. That is, from my understanding (With a grain of salt) no longer the case. Hollow points are legal now.... we are legally permitted to kill each other off with whatever the heck we want now!!! Hurrah!

On a more serious note... take a look at handloads.com and Marshall & Sanov's publication on STOPPING POWER....

Here's the scoop. 45ACP Federal 230g HS (Hydra Shock) resulted in 96% single shot stops from their detailed study. 9mm Federal 124g. HS resulted in only 83% one shot stops.

There is an interesting article in this month's COMBAT HANDGUNS magazine regarding the use of handloads and defending oneself in the event of being charged with murder or manslaughter instead of being hailed a self-defense hero..... worth reading. They advise very much against using a hand load for self defense. You will have to read the article.

This (my comments) are not to be misconstrued as an endorsement or encouragement to carry or CCW stateside and ESPECIALLY NOT in Canada, where it is generally illegal. PLEASE! This is merely an interesting discussion and makes me wonder why NATO has gone from .45ACP to 9mm for their standard sidearm again.

Now... this brings up the topic of FRANGIBLE ammo for self defense. You know, that's the stuff that breaks up into wee bits and creates multiple wound channels to stop the perp. A great load for LEO's to be sure. I can't get my mind wrapped around doing that much carnage to another human being.... but logic will prevail. It is necessary when it is your life or the perp's, right? Here is the biggie in my opinion. Frangible ammo presents a significantly lower risk to bystanders precisely because the round breaks up on entering the perp.'s body; i.e. it does not exit and enter someone else. Less richochet activity as well, for those (RARE!!) misses.

My $.02 worth guys.

Regards,
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Dum Dum bullets got their name from hollow cavity bullets which were developed by the Brits at the Dum-Dum Arsenal in India, in the late 19th century. By contrast, modern military bullets are often designed, intentionally or unintentionally, with a weakened portion in the jacket at the cannular. Because the bullet is butt heavy, it turnes as it passes through flesh. As a result of the thin jacket at the cannular, the bullet breaks into two or more pieces as it penetrates, resulting in multiple wound tracts. These pieces go spinning through flesh at wild angles, unlike a normal expanding bullet which continues in a straight line because the greatest mass of the bullet moves to the nose as expansion occurs. Now, isn't that an improvement!

You speak of "carnage" from frangible bullets which you wouldn't want to inflict on another human-being. Tell you what slick - if that other "human-being" was trying to kill you; if you could, you would shoot him with hollow points, blow him up with a Claymore Mine, or incinerate him with a can of napalm, and good riddance to him. The individual you shoot deserves little consideration due to his actions prior to being shot, however, bystanders do deserve consideration, and are in far less danger of injury if your pistol is loaded with frangible bullets which do not exit the bad guy, rather than ball rounds which do, then proceed to ricochet down the street.
 
gushulak said:
Probably because there are no viable factory loadings for it. No Gold Dots, No Ranger SXT-T series, no Federal HST. Not a single serious modern self defence bullet selection to choose from.
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WRONG WRONG WRONG


DoubleTap is probably some of the BEST ammo on the market and he has many many personal defence loadings for the 10mm...(his FAVOURITE cartridge).

When it comes to life and death self-defense I would want the BEST ammo available.....DOUBLE TAP!!


Here is McNett's penetration data...

Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"


DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"
 
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"frangible ammo is its ability to penetrate kevlar"
The stuff I had would be stopped by drywall and the skin of an aircraft. It was compressed powdered metal stuck together with some kind of plastic. The order of the day was headshots and lots of em.
 
There is a big difference between a bullet being "stopped" and one that "comes apart in".

The frangible I tested against the kevlar came out the back of the vest in bits but it had a ton of velocity and as a result would penetrate surprisingly deeply.

I'd bet dollars to donuts the ammo you are talking about would come out the other side of both the drywall sheet and the aircraft skin. It just does so in tiny bits.
 
Ok someone straighten me out here because I see various threads that discuss this notion of carrying a firearm for self-defence. Some people even appear to choose their handguns based on concealability, lol. If you're having a little hypothetical fantasy fun, fine. Other than that what possible relevance can this have to shooting in Canada? Do you all have ccw permits in the States and hang out there waiting for someone to attack you? How many citizens in Canada walk around carrying legally and actually use a firearm to defend themselves? Like I said if you've been watching a bit too much TV that's a different story. (Will await a barrage of something or other after stirring this sacred pot).
 
torontogunguy said:
Now for something completely different.

Ok. Let's get serious here. If I ever have an encounter of the third kind I intend to shoot for the toes.... ever see that guy with the red beard that Bugs Bunny keeps shooting in the toes? ('something...Pete') Watching him hop around holding his foot breaks me up.

Think he uses some HUGE calibre cuz Pete can poke Bugs' carrots into the end of his revolver.

THAT's the calibre I want to shoot from now on.

And carrots aren't all that much more expensive than the real stuff.

They aren't very accurate though... Pete shoots off a hundred rounds from his hundred round revolver and misses Bugs with each and every shot. Good thing though... otherwise we'd have no sequel Bugs Bunny cartoons... they'd have to replace him with Daffy and the only thing Daffy can do is spin his beak.

Torontogunguy
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I gotta go with TGG on this one but don't sell Daffy short. Ok, his beak might spin a bit from a roundhouse right but he CAN fly and is pretty good at spitting when he talks. (BTW I think it's "Yosemite Sam").
 
Unregistered said:
The point about .40 hollowpoints makes me wonder. I have a .40 S&W carbine. Would a factory hollowpoint expand the same way in a 16" barrel as in a 4-5" barrel?
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Bullet expansion depends on many factors, in fact many essays and papers have been written on various bullets effects, that I couldn't possibly cover all the facts involved on a point by point basis.

But I will say this: YES, the expasion will be the same diameter, however the bullet may penatrate a lil further with the carbine due to the increased velocity, but not much due to the expansion and resulting energy deposit. Clear as Mud?

Nice lil unscientific fact, last month I had to dispatch an injured deer at roadside with my issued SIG229. I just happened recover the bullet afterwards as I noticed it upon leaving the scene. 1 round through the brain and out the lower center jaw. Expansion was complete almost a full inch about 7/8" I'd guess through 12' approx of bone and flesh. Gory I know but reasuring none the less.

Another neat fact about the S&W .40 180 Grain Hollow Point, It will penetrate 14.25" of human flesh under test conditions(Winchester Ranger Ammo), don't ask how I know, I just do, FBI data I read at some point, some where sometime while being trained.
 
First, I'm a middle aged white guy with a family. I don't ccw....EVER...but I am the curious type, so here's a few pure facts.

1. I just bought 50 rounds of American Eagle .44 Rem. magnum 240 grain copper jacketed hollow points on Wednesday of this week from Wholesale Sports here in Edmonton. I kinda figure a large sporting goods retailer is not selling banned ammo, so that should settle the hollow point issue.

2. I took a roll of tightly wound industrial wipers (terry cloth paper towels) and poped a .22 into it at about 6 feet. It went in and out with the expected 22 sized hole. Not much excitement there. I then poped the same roll with the .44 hollow points.
After the fluff in the air had cleared...........I went and got the roll. The hole going in was about double the size of the 22 as would be expected. The exit hole was about 2 1/4 inches in diameter, and it took a lot of material with it on the way out. I then unwrapped the roll to see what had hapened inside. It was pretty much the same story all the way through. It went in about 2 inches, started to mushroom, and then ripped the roll apart the rest of the way through. A real mess with a surprising amount of loose material still in the hole. I'm pretty sure you would not be making it to the hospital without extreme and immediate medical intervention, and I mean in seconds, not a minute or more. Even then, luck is not going to be on your side.

I then took a 2L pop bottle filled with water and put a 44 into that (a person is 97-98% water depending on who you talk to, right? It exploded. Nothing else to say about it, it exploded. There was water everywhere, including on me, my gun, my range box, targets....just everywhere. The bottle was shredded. The temporary cavity that those rounds create must be huge. The material in my roll was compressable, so I'm sure it had a lot of give and rebound to it as the round went through. Liquids are not, and thus the exploding water bottle. Now, according to who you talk to, a person is 97% water....give or take a bit. I would say that the bottle of water was far more representative of what would hapen if someone was hit by that round. My main concern, as the article pointed out, would be the penetration....where is that round going to end up if they were really skinny, or you didn't hit them COM???? My kids bedroom???? My neighbours house???? Not good thoughts. From that point of view, it's probably not the best choice for doing urban livingroom battle. From the point of view of a one shot stop??? Well, remember what your hunting instructor taught you. Arrows kill game by blood letting. Bullets kill with shock power. The animal is usually dead long before it has a chance to bleed to death. At close range, a 44 round has a JESUS-load of shock power to it. Yes, the recoil is a #####. No nicer way to put it, but it's not like it breaks your hand with every shot or it's impossible to hold onto the gun for a second shot if you missed with the first. Besides, if you're in that kind of situation, I'm pretty sure there's going to be enough adrenalin (sp) going through you that you're probably not even going to notice it.
I did the same test with a 170 grain 30-30 hollow point. I stood about 20 feet back (I do learn from my mistakes ya know :) ) It blew a lot of water and ripped the bottle, but the bottle was still for the most part intact. Nowhere near the outward explosive like damage of a close range 44 shot. That being said, I'm sure that you'd get more penetration from the 30-30 round, and definately more range. Anyway, that's how I spent part of my day off. :)
Cheers.
 
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The point about .40 hollowpoints makes me wonder. I have a .40 S&W carbine. Would a factory hollowpoint expand the same way in a 16" barrel as in a 4-5" barrel?
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Bullets dont expand in the barrel. :rolleyes: The only difference the barrel length makes wrt the bullet is the muzzle velocity. More velocity is good up to a point but I don't think a carbine length barrel on a pistol cartridge is going to make that much difference.

2. I took a roll of tightly wound industrial wipers (terry cloth paper towels) I then poped the same roll with the .44 hollow points.
After the fluff in the air had cleared...........I went and got the roll. The hole going in was about double the size of the 22 as would be expected. The exit hole was about 2 1/4 inches in diameter, and it took a lot of material with it on the way out.
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Flesh is elastic where paper towel is decidedly NOT elastic so what you saw is not a good representation as to what the bullet will do in flesh.

I then took a 2L pop bottle filled with water and put a 44 into that (a person is 97-98% water depending on who you talk to, right?
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WRONG. The human body is close to 60% water. Hence the reason proper ballistic research uses gel and not jugs of water.
http://www.boston.com/globe/search/stories/health/how_and_why/011298.htm

Nothing else to say about it, it exploded. There was water everywhere, including on me, my gun, my range box, targets....just everywhere. The bottle was shredded. The temporary cavity that those rounds create must be huge......I would say that the bottle of water was far more representative of what would hapen if someone was hit by that round.
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A plastic pop bottle is strong but brittle (in that it fractures rather than stretches) very unlike flesh. Again, what you saw is impressive but a very poor analog for how a bullet will perform in flesh.

From the point of view of a one shot stop??? Well, remember what your hunting instructor taught you. Arrows kill game by blood letting. Bullets kill with shock power. The animal is usually dead long before it has a chance to bleed to death.
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Your hunting instructor doesn't know #### about how things die then. Animals and humans die from blood loss. PERIOD. There is no such thing as "shock power" or "knockdown power". :rolleyes: Bullets pierce a hole through the body and cause bleeding which results in death. Bleeding is the result of the disruption of tissue through both the permanent cavity and the stretch or crush effects of the temporary cavity.

There was a documented case of a perp taking a 12 ga slug through the back who then managed to jump out of the car and run across the street firing a the police. If a 12 ga slug though the torso doesn't result in the immediate incapacitation of a human being then not much will.
 
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It's absoloutly gruesome the wound channel that a hollow point can leave. I forgot to mention in regards to the dispatched deer that a nice 1" x 1"1/4 piece of brain came out with the bullet and a small piece of bone attached to the copper piece of the bullet.
Once had to dispatch an injured Raccoon(Yeah, killed Cows, Moose, Deer, Skunks, dogs,cats, horses and any other road kill you can think of on a daily basis), any ways lets just say there wasnt much left of the head.

An Instructor once told me, In regards to the .40 S&W it penetrates enough so it will go thru the leather jacket and shoulder of the F&*K head 300lb Biker trying to kill you and penetrate enough to hit his vitals with out hurting the baby he is holding in his other arm. Whatever.... point she was trying to make is that most of the energy is deposited at 6-7 inches where full expansion is designed to take place with minimal ricochet should there be an exit wound.
Hollow points are you best chance if your thinking, (and you should be) about what is beyond what you intend to shoot at, simply because of it's rapid energy deposit.

The difference between a 30-30 hollow point and a 44 hitting you is simple.
The 44 will make a nice round wound channel causing you to bleed out,
The 30-30 will tear the S*%T out of you causing more trauma and a massive wound channel making you bleed out faster.
The only real shock value you will ever get from a bullet is hitting a large nerve centre ie: the brain, or hoping for shock from immediate massive blood loss by hitting the vitals. lung damage can work in 3 seconds or less. Thats a long three seconds if bad guy is cutting you up with a knife though.
Mind you it looks blood painful to be shot in the leg or arm as I have witnessed. Just FYI
 
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I asked my wife about this. She's an R.N. Of course, now she's looking at me sideways like I've finally gone off the deep end.....great!! :)

Anyway....yes, you're right Suputin. You body is estimated to be between 60 to 70 percent water. Hummm. going to have to look up my old health teacher and tell him he was wrong!!! :)

You are completely incorrect when you say that animals always die from blood loss. She told me that sudden blows to the chest can stop a persons heart without any bleeding what so ever and the shock of a bullet passing through your torso can easily do it. You can literally be clinically dead before you hit the floor from a sharp blow. She's seen this trauma in car accident victims, and one of the girls she worked with at Trillium hospital in Mississauga Ont. had a guy come in dead from this from a bad hit during a hockey game!!! You can also kill someone by doing CPR compressions on them when there's nothing wrong with them. Sudden blows to nerve masses can cause involuntary mussel contractions, including the diaphragm which can result in death from suffocation. Also, sudden trauma to nerve masses can cause nervous system overload which can cause instant loss of consciousness, seizures, paralysis and death. I'm trying to remember everything she told me and condense it down....She got right into explaining it all to me....the sicko!!!! LOL!! She did a little demonstration on me. Lift up your arm and give yourself a sharp two finger poke on the inside of your upper arm about 1/3 of the way down from your armpit. Jesus, I think I saw stars for a second, and she didn't nail me very hard. It wasn't a gentle tap, but it's not like she "wound up" to do it either. Apparently a persons brain can only handle x amount of input from the nervous system, and can literally be overloaded by excessive sensory input, resulting in loss of consciousness. Anyway, the long and short of it is, if you take a large, fast moving bullet of any type to the torso, you're ""probably"" not going very far. There will always be exceptions based on drug use, adrenalin, alcohol, pure luck, etc. Short of cutting someone completely in half with a tank round, there are no absolute guarantees. Apparently my old hunting instructor did know his #### :)
 
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Ha Ha! :D

Good stuff.

I don't care if NASA made it and the Pope blessed it, it ain't gonna do you no good unless you can hit something with it.
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