- Location
- Downtown Vancouver, BC
Charles Bronson was a lefty? Naah. That's gotta be a reversed pic.
Self-Defense Ammo: The Search for the Magic Bullet
- Thread starter pontcanna
- Start date
"Can", not "will". Lots of people get hit in the chest without dying, your wife just doesn't see them, hence her experiences are skewed.
Bull. A CNS hit is as close to a ' guarantee ' as you need.
Nope. Animals die of blood loss and/or CNS hits (turkey hunting anyone?).Apparently my old hunting instructor did know his s**t
While I'd agree with this statement in general, as usual there are exceptions to every rule.
A while back I saw a TV show about an LA gangbanger who had taken a 9mm to the forehead. Now most of us would rightly think that would result in pretty near instantaneous death. However the bullet went from side to side across the forehead and blew out the front of his brain. If you know your anatomy, the deepest life sustaining operations of the brain are low down at the back where the spinal cord attaches.
So long story short, this kid survived with half his brain missing. It was quite gruesome to see the result and he ws definately not even close to normal afterward but he did survive.
There are actually lots of cases of people surviving serious trama to the front of their brains. It is undoubtedly a life altering injury but it can be a survivable one.
The lesson is never assume any shot is lethal and keep shooting till the bastard stops moving.
Agreed on both. Forget the 115gr vs 147gr argument - we need concealable nuke launchers.
Cocked&Locked
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S. Ontario
My wife had a student at her school attempt suicide with a .38 special to the temple while at home. The cranial overpressure popped both eye's out of the sockets and destroyed most of the frontal lobes. (un)Fortunately he survived, but has no sight in one eye, sees only light and dark rough shapes with the other, and is very very disabled.....but he survived a 38 in one side and out the other.
Cocked&Locked
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S. Ontario
Animals and humans die from blood loss. PERIOD. There is no such thing as "shock power" or "knockdown power".
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I don't really want to get into a heated debate here, but I do want to toss out that I think there is a psychological/physiological factor involved in the wounding mechanism that is enhanced with velocity (hydrostatic shock effect) that goes beyond simple blood loss. You mention the documented case of a felon fleeing with a 12 gauge slug through them, but there are also cases where felons fall down incapacitated from a .22 hit. Much seems to be influenced by the mental state of the target. The problem is, none of this effect is quantifiable. I suspect it's similar to how you seldom notice recoil when you take a shot at ducks with you 3" magnum, your too keyed to notice, or how if your playing paint ball, you don't really feel the hits but if you stand there and someone shoots you it can hurt like hell...I don't claim to be an expert but it seems to be involved in these cases.
I have to agree with C&L. There's a huge psychological factor involved with getting hit with a gun that we haven't discussed, as is the intimidation factor about the presence of personal defense devices.
Then again there is also the fact that a drugged or psychotic perpetrator, which is arguably the most dangerous, will probably not be considering this...
- Dave.
a 9 mm has a higher velocity but less "stopping power" then .40 or 45. a 9mm to the body is more likely to kill a person from bleeding then a 40 or 45 because it penetrates deeper and hits more organs. To be safe its actually better to use hollow points in a 9 so that the round expands and does not go in deeper to cause more bleeding (cuts down on the chance of killing someone). BUT if someone is wearing armor then the 9 and the 40 are usless
I have an engineering and medical degree plus I read this on a police forum
I have an engineering and medical degree plus I read this on a police forum
Are you saying the 45 acp is going to penetrate body armour better than a 'useless' 9mm or 40cal?
Cocked&Locked
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S. Ontario
curious to know how you rate stopping power, with modern hollow points in +P loadings, they all perform about the same. Plus, as hardball they all perform about the same as well, esp regaurding penetration in flesh representing media. 9's do do better in barrier tests due to smaller frontal area
I still think that the best bullet is the person who can shoot straight
I am more afraid of the .22 in the hands of a bullseye shooter than of a .44 mag in the hands of chuckie the cheese brain crake head..
One of my fav shows is the wild video segment, and you see soo many clips where the bad guy and leo exchanged a couple of hundred rounds each with no one being hurt and this at very close range. The camera always seems to take it in the chin
My point is and this is against some doctrines that i have seen, technology or in our case equipement either be it ammo, gun or whatever will not make you a better shooter..
The best cartridge is the one that is shot on target ! While some cartridges maybe more efficient than others, there all lethal in the hands of a good shot..
I truly recommend practice and lots of it,
My 2 beans
TG
This thread, in my humble opinion, should have ended right here !!
with TIGHTGROUP'S remark. .....
Practice so much that you can make
head-shots quickly every time, up to 10 Meters.
Even a "lowly" .22 LR will end the threat on your life in a hurry
this way.
May you never have to, but nice to know you CAN !
Just ask certain "services" (undisclosed)
I do not suggest any particular caliber,
but practice ...practice and more practice !
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+1...Nato ball ammo has excellent penetrating capabilities.....better than .40 and much better than .45.
troutseeker
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Prince George, BC
The best self defense bullet is a good old slug, shot from a Dlask 8.5" barrelled pistol gripped shotgun! So there!
Troutseeker
Troutseeker
Better yet. Micronukes from Californium. You need a biggish bore, but nothing a CGN member couldn't handle.
Cocked&Locked
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S. Ontario
plus you'd be able to warm lunch up on their chest afterwards, or use them to take X-rays with......
Actually a shotgun slug is a poor choice. It is highly likely to overpenetrate and end up god knows where doing god knows what damage in its travels. It is also unlikely to penetrate kevlar body armour.
The best choice for a self defence bullet is a lightweight, frangible 5.56mm out of a 14" barreled M4 carbine. The bullet will provide maximim damage in tissue without over penetration. It will also cut through kevlar like it isn't there.
Cocked&Locked
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S. Ontario
Cocked&Loaded...
to answer the question about "stopping power"
it is exactly that the ability to stop something in its tracks and in order to do that the projectile has to expell its energy into the object....since a 9mm does not expand it keeps most of its kenitic energy (not getting into the math of that) but when a round is heavier and slower it dumps its keneitc into the target....stopping it
I would say that for a pistol the best ammo in a 9mm is a lighter hollow point...say like in the 120 gr's.....has very high velocity and then expands suddenly and has pretty good penetration BUT lighter bullets need closer targets also
to answer the question about "stopping power"
it is exactly that the ability to stop something in its tracks and in order to do that the projectile has to expell its energy into the object....since a 9mm does not expand it keeps most of its kenitic energy (not getting into the math of that) but when a round is heavier and slower it dumps its keneitc into the target....stopping it
I would say that for a pistol the best ammo in a 9mm is a lighter hollow point...say like in the 120 gr's.....has very high velocity and then expands suddenly and has pretty good penetration BUT lighter bullets need closer targets also
