OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
It doesn't matter. The kit is designed for a pistol. There is no magical never registered shadow 2 frame with a built in stock.
Shadow 2 carbine kit.
- Thread starter mctrigger
- Start date
It doesn't matter. The kit is designed for a pistol. There is no magical never registered shadow 2 frame with a built in stock.
You have 30 days but you basically cannot take the R length PCC out of the house as you don't have an ATT for it. Even if your ATT doesn't have registration certificate numbers, your ATT condition is that you have have a registration certificate, which you don't.
Also my understanding is that once you have an R rifle it's not possible to "re-register" it as NR. Once R, always R unless you deactivate it. I would love for someone to post a regulatory reference on that one (I could be and would like to be, wrong on that one).
It is completely possible to deregister a restricted rifle. I don't think its explicitly stated in the laws that you can, but the absence of it not being allowed means it is.
Also many of us have had it done in the past. It requires contacting the firearms registrar with verification that the rifle is now in a non restricted configuration. Once they are satisfied it is no longer restricted class they will remove it from the registry.
But like others have said once a handgun always a handgun.
"Handgun: means a firearm that is designed, altered or intended to be aimed and fired by the action of one hand, whether or not it has been redesigned or subsequently altered to be aimed and fired by the action of both hands;" [Criminal code of Canada 84 (1)]
I had my Grand dad's registered 41LC deregisteted from the registry and now is an Antique and is classified as a non-registered revolver and can be shot anywhere a firearm can be legally discharged. According to the CFO and the Criminal Code of Canada the revolver is not classified as a firearm and the Firearms Act does not apply to it. So a handgun is always a handgun but a firearm is not always a firearm. All handgun must be registered is not true either. Handguns that are Antiques do not have to be registered nor are they deemed to be firearms under the Firearms Act. There is one exception and that is if you use an Antique handgun in a criminal activity your Antique is then deemed to be a firearm for charging purposes ie you would be charged with "Armed Robbery" vs Robbery. Per my discussions with the CFO office when I had the old Colt deregistered.
For those with some experience is dealing with firearm issue you learn there is nothing logical about the Firearms legislation. Much is left to the CFO and RCMP to administer and interpret which makes it difficult to understand.
Confused?
Take Care
Bob
ps you have to send in pictures or have a Firearms Verifier comfirm the rifle is in a non-restricted state. Prohibited handguns can be Classified as Restricted by changing the barrel length to greater than 105MM and having a Firearms Verifier verify the new condition of the pistol. This was popular with some of the early Beretta & Walther compact pistols. Well you could before C21 making all handguns, not including Antiques Prohibited. I have no idea how that works since I don't have 12.6 status yet I now own prohibitive firearms. I guess even the 12.6 status must fall under some portion of C21.
For those with some experience is dealing with firearm issue you learn there is nothing logical about the Firearms legislation. Much is left to the CFO and RCMP to administer and interpret which makes it difficult to understand.
Confused?
Take Care
Bob
ps you have to send in pictures or have a Firearms Verifier comfirm the rifle is in a non-restricted state. Prohibited handguns can be Classified as Restricted by changing the barrel length to greater than 105MM and having a Firearms Verifier verify the new condition of the pistol. This was popular with some of the early Beretta & Walther compact pistols. Well you could before C21 making all handguns, not including Antiques Prohibited. I have no idea how that works since I don't have 12.6 status yet I now own prohibitive firearms. I guess even the 12.6 status must fall under some portion of C21.
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OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Oh if the buttstock houses the recoil assembly. Then you cannot make a custom frame.
We are not talking about antiques. You are grasping for straws.
We are not talking about antiques. You are grasping for straws.
You really didn't need to PM that to me.
You still haven't come up with an example of a handgun's registration being switched to NR from R. It doesn't exist. We know antique is a thing with a very specific set of circumstances that must be met. Not any handgun can have antique status.
AlphaCharlieDelta
Member
- Location
- The Wet Coast
Still a pistol in a chassis
I had a Robinson Arms XCR Pistol that I tried to convert to non restricted status by buying a new upper for it, the RCMP CFO’s reply is not possible, they’re argument stands on “once registered as a handgun, it will always remain a handgun” . I tried to have further hypothetical discussions with them but they stated, there is no other way around it.
You are right we are not, nor are we talking about converting pistols from registered to non registered as you and some of the others think. Incidentally the old 41LC was a registered pistol and now it is not a registered pistol so don't claim it "can't be done".
The Criminal Code talks about and defines what a handgun is and a handgun frame by the Criminal code is not a handgun it is a frame and in this case a frame of a handgun. If you think otherwise than you are saying a frame can discharge a projectile all by itself and that I don't think you believe.
Note the following is a bit confusing because Trudeau says all handguns are now prohibited or illegal depending on who he is talking about so I am assuming C21 is the same as C71 which is the same as C68 with additional restrictions.
The Firearms Act talks about "Firearms" and within the Act it Classifies broadly them into three classes, Prohibited, Restricted and Non Restricted. Some makes and models of firearms can be in at least two and arguably three of the classes. eg. 3" K 38 Revolver is a Prohibited while a 6" K38 is Restricted. a 3" 1911 is a Prohib a 5" 1911 is restricted. Note both the revolver and the 1911 are both defined as Firearms. Each have frames that are registered. But the frames are not in themselves firearms as defined until they are mated with the barrel, internal parts etc. Those parts are not registered, just the frame. Now that's almost all true except Sig Sauer produced the SIG 320 and now the we have a situation where the frame is not registered the trigger group is. No one I know of would suggest the 320 trigger group is a pistol but it is the "Registered" part for that model of gun. Please don't argue the latter, I spent 6 Fnnn months dealing with the CBSA over the importation of a Wilson Combat frame for my 320 and the Officer in charge, when it finally got the frame to his desk realized their error and I got the frame within two days.
Obviously, those who administer the Act decide what part of each firearm presented to them is or will be the registered part. If we look the various models of firearms, for our purposes we will settle on Revolvers, Pistols, rifles and Shotguns, two of which are handguns. Each has sub variants based on how they are loaded, barrel length etc. and can be classified differently eg A double barreled shotgun can have a barrel length of 10" and not be registered while a handgun can have a barrel length of 10" and be restricted. So I suggest there is more at play here than just claiming it is a pistol or a rifle or a shotgun. For those who claim all pistols most be registered I would say not all of the parts have to be registered and only because the Firearms Act uses a broad term "Firearms" and the administrators of the Act decide on what part of the Firearm must be registered. In the case of AR the empty receiver qualifies as the registered part. In the case of the Handguns it is the frame or trigger group. So much for the registration, but what Classification?
Classification of the firearm though is a whole different matter and is subject to interpretation of those who administer the Act and I suggest there is no one standard or principle involved. Someone has decided all handguns must be Classified as Restricted, Prohibited or in the case on Machine Pistols Banned. But what if what you have is no longer a handgun. I know from above you "redesigned or subsequently altered to be aimed and fired by the action of both hands;" [Criminal code of Canada 84 (1)]" but there is nothing that says the Administrators of the Act can't decide that the kit is put together so it it is capable of firing a projectile.... and becomes a firearm that it is no longer a pistol. The frame itself is just the part that is registered and that remains so. What's to say the same Administrators could not, upon applicatio to allow the now PCC to be Classified non restricted vs restricted. We don't know until someone asks.
I think I have established that parts of each firearm may or may not be registered. And two I think we all can agree that Classification of firearms is done so based upon a number of factors and definitions.
If you believe English words mean what they mean go back to our friend the Criminal Code of Canada.
"redesigned or subsequently altered to be aimed and fired by the action of both hands;"
Are we dealing with a pistol here or a registered part of the pistol. Unlike the Kidon Kit and others like it where the whole pistol is utilized. In Kit we are talking about this is not the case. We are only using the registered part, the frame and the frame does not meet the Criminal Codes definition of a handgun! Why because it is simply a frame.
- Section 2 of the Criminal Code defines a firearm as a “barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm.”
the frame does not neet the definition of a firearm. The frame is nothing more than the registered part of a pistol not the pistol itself.
So I still suggest that if you deal with the law as it is written then you at least could apply to have the kit and frame classified as an unregistered PCC. The Administrators of the C21 would have to decide that as configured. This is not any different than a manufacture welding on a buttstock to a revolver and applying for it to be registered as a carbine. They can say know or they can say yes Classification of firearms is left to the RCMP to administer.
With that I rest my case. If any of you decide to plunk down 1,200 Euros, if that is the price this thing comes in at, I woulod give it a shot. It will cost you no more than a stamp, a piece of paper and10 minutes of your time to compose a letter. I bet, depending on who is in power you will ahve a 50 - 50 chance of having classified as a non restricted PCC
Take Care
Bob
ps The while world claimed man would never fly then along came the Wright Bros and Graham Bell and voila we can fly.
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OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Nobody understands your blabbing, even you don't, as your flopping around, confusing everybody and making no sense.
This kit requires a HANDGUN frame to be used ( Glock, CZ75 ) FULL STOP. Not a antique ( as needed to be made before a set date ) not a prohib to restricted conversion. A MODERN 21century Handgun. No manufacture is going to make from scratch a frame to use with this kit only, that on paper will be a NR for Canada market. Considering the barrel length is under 18.5". so it wouldn't be a NR anyways, you need to get the company to make a NR barrel. Again, for a small Canadian market. It would cost them a fortune for what? a small Canadian Market. That government gonna see its for a handgun so still be a handgun.
Crosman for 20+ years, been making carbines in the states. 2289, 2250. BUT Canada still deems them pistols, because they use the same tube as the pistol version, so stock and barrel length does not matter. You think we can change them on that?
Yet you expect them magically with a custom handgun frame for a semi auto be a NR? I don't even think UK version of handguns with its long barrels, and weird long rods off the grip, would legally be a rifle.
The buckmark rifle, you cannot switch it to a smaller barrel without breaking the 660mm rule, the revolver pistols, well those you cannot make any changes to them.
OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Your 41 LC example is flawed as it only got deregistered as it was probably improper registered in the first place, as it legally meets the requirement of a antique ( by year and caliber ). Not a 15 year old CZ75. Good luck trying to de register a modern handgun.
Okayshooter speaking about babbling on my god you got your shirt in a twist over this.
1. The 41LC Revolver was properly registered at the time and they did de-register the revolver and Classified it as an Antique so quit saying a handgun can't be changed, under certain circumstances it can as I pointed out.
2. Anyone who owns this kit can apply for the change. If they say no its no but if you don't try you will never know.
3. Clearly you don't understand and that's on you not me. I understand there is little sense or reasoning in C21 and it remains mostly a guide to the RCMP on how to administer Firearms in Canada. Something PP has pledged to correct. He, apparently not you, understands how conflicted and inconsistent the Classification rules are and has pledged to change the process. By the time this kit gets to market we will likely be under a new government so this issue may well be on its way to being moot.
Scotty454 some will, even if you can't. I will move on though, thanks.
Take Care
Bob
1. The 41LC Revolver was properly registered at the time and they did de-register the revolver and Classified it as an Antique so quit saying a handgun can't be changed, under certain circumstances it can as I pointed out.
2. Anyone who owns this kit can apply for the change. If they say no its no but if you don't try you will never know.
3. Clearly you don't understand and that's on you not me. I understand there is little sense or reasoning in C21 and it remains mostly a guide to the RCMP on how to administer Firearms in Canada. Something PP has pledged to correct. He, apparently not you, understands how conflicted and inconsistent the Classification rules are and has pledged to change the process. By the time this kit gets to market we will likely be under a new government so this issue may well be on its way to being moot.
Scotty454 some will, even if you can't. I will move on though, thanks.
Take Care
Bob
OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I fully understand. I'm talking modern semi auto like what this would effect. Not your PPK 32acp, or 1898 Smith.
Yes, If there is a rule/law that allows it to be de-registered. I don't see any for modern day pistols. This kit isn't something new. Mech Tech uppers been out for 20 plus years. All it used was the frame of your Glock 1911, M&P ETC. If this was the case, you'll see restricted rifle versions 20 plus years ago. Pretty sure they tried, and didn't pass the RCMP. There is NO new clause or laws, that allow you to derestrict a modern day semi auto pistol, that works in our favor.
So what you are suggesting has been done before and didn't work out in your favor.
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OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I have a TC contender with a 10in barrel. I can slap a 14in barrel and stock and legally make it a NR and no longer a handgun. This is a single shot. The government still sees it as a pistol, they won't even change the classification to rifle.
So that no longer a handgun doesn't fly. Yes our laws BS and highly doubt you'll see change even with a new government.
Again it be a neish market that nobody want to fork out millions in legal fees. The mech tech carbine did not do well in Canada due to it still being a restricted.
So that no longer a handgun doesn't fly. Yes our laws BS and highly doubt you'll see change even with a new government.
Again it be a neish market that nobody want to fork out millions in legal fees. The mech tech carbine did not do well in Canada due to it still being a restricted.
Nothing about this is correct.
Changing the upper on your fx9 changes the firearms classification, the upper is not a “restricted device” it’s just an unregulated part. The fx9 is restricted, or not, based on barrel lenght and overall lenght. You are correct if you configure a restricted rifle, you have to notify the cfc and change its classification.
A restricted handgun (we’re talking about shadows) is a restricted handgun, if it uses a cz shadow receiver, it’s restricted, doesn’t matter if it’s barrel 106mm or 5 meters long, this upper here is just a part and in no way changes the classification of the receiver, the cfc policy is once a handgun, always a handgun. The norlite is an unregulated upper only, same as an owning a second pistol slide. it won’t have an FRT classification as it’s not a firearm, you have to use the lower from your pistol.
AlphaCharlieDelta
Member
- Location
- The Wet Coast
Nope, because a pistol is registered as a pistol and can NEVER be anything other than a pistol. Even if you took a Ruger charger and put it in a 10/22 stock and re-barreled to NR length... still a pistol based on the law. Once its registered as a pistol it remains a pistol no matter what augments or changes are made. The only way to "unregister" a pistol is if you can prove antique status... and a chassis that takes a registered Glock or CZ frame ain't EVER making antique status.
Sorry Bob...
There is 0.0000% chance based on the current firearms regulations in Canada.
Trying to arguing the topic any further is a waste of your time, and ours.
P.S You can get all that info off the firearms classification data on the RCMP website...
P.P.S I would buy one of these for a shadow 1 in a heartbeat.
AlphaCharliDelta yes I agree based upon the decisions you reference there is no chance. It's unfortunate the RCMP and to honest the bureaucrats that now are sheltered behind the RCMP are allowed to administer, and I would argue run fast and loose with the laws and regulations have the power they do. From hearing PP one of the things he has promised to do is re-write the Firearms Act and within the Act the Classification system. He wants to remove the ability of politicians and the RCMP to make arbitrary decisions on firearms retroactively and bring some consistency to the Act. I suspect most will like the changes and most certainly some will not.
If you are ok with the "restricted status" you should take a hard look at the Kidon Kit. The only real difference between this concept kit and the Kidon is you might end up with a longer barrel as the Kidon uses the complete pistol For competition purposes IPSC, 3GUN, 2 GUN if you are using a red dot or scope the potential longer barrel doesn't do much for you. The Kidon comes with excellent iron sights and when mated to any of a number of popular pistols (mine has the adapter for the M&P Gen1 and the Berreta 92FS. with Vortex Crossfier Red Dot mounted. This setup will work great for IPSC PCC and local 2 GUN this year. I am waiting for a decision from IDPA as to its legality for that sports PCC Division. The Kidon Kit gets caught up in the SBR rules in the US so for us it becomes a nonplayer if you are going to the US. The SBR Stamp is not available to Aliens eg us Canadians I am reliably informed. Shipped out of Israel mine arrived in three business days. I have no idea how IWI managed the delivery but they did.
Thanks for your replies.
Take Care
Bob
If you are ok with the "restricted status" you should take a hard look at the Kidon Kit. The only real difference between this concept kit and the Kidon is you might end up with a longer barrel as the Kidon uses the complete pistol For competition purposes IPSC, 3GUN, 2 GUN if you are using a red dot or scope the potential longer barrel doesn't do much for you. The Kidon comes with excellent iron sights and when mated to any of a number of popular pistols (mine has the adapter for the M&P Gen1 and the Berreta 92FS. with Vortex Crossfier Red Dot mounted. This setup will work great for IPSC PCC and local 2 GUN this year. I am waiting for a decision from IDPA as to its legality for that sports PCC Division. The Kidon Kit gets caught up in the SBR rules in the US so for us it becomes a nonplayer if you are going to the US. The SBR Stamp is not available to Aliens eg us Canadians I am reliably informed. Shipped out of Israel mine arrived in three business days. I have no idea how IWI managed the delivery but they did.
Thanks for your replies.
Take Care
Bob
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AlphaCharlieDelta
Member
- Location
- The Wet Coast
I have to respectfully disagree Bob. The shorter barrel in ipsc/uspsa/3-gun of a kidon (I have one btw) is a liability as your chances of sweeping yourself are way higher. The perfect barrel length for a PCC is 14.5 inches the add on a break... Keeps good handling characteristics and keeps the sight radius and accuracy top notch. Unfortunately getting a 14.5" barrel for a PC Carbine/FX9/ghm9 is a trick in itself. The kidon is a fun range toy. But I would never use one in competition.
As for the future conservative government...let's hope he wasn't just running his mouth, and follows through with what he says he will do.
God knows I need a new pistol and an Devinci custom AR9
As for the future conservative government...let's hope he wasn't just running his mouth, and follows through with what he says he will do.
God knows I need a new pistol and an Devinci custom AR9
Good to hear from your experience with the Kit. I try to make it a practice not to sweep myself but I know where you are coming from. If my experience mirrors yours I have three other options. Most of the shooters I play with when I travel to the US for IDPA are using 16" AR Platforms, with CX4 Storms 16", MPX Sigs and 16" Scorpions.
I have a M&P Pro in 40 cal that I have put in the Kidon. It either finds a home on the Kidon or it goes back to the safe to collect dust. The gun is not one of the smartest buys I have made. I intend to only shoot club IPSC matches for practice using a PCC for recreation. The only time I am fast these days is one I am running to take a pee so its all for fun now.
Take Care
Bob
ps Sight radius means nothing if you are using a red dot or scope...right.
I have a M&P Pro in 40 cal that I have put in the Kidon. It either finds a home on the Kidon or it goes back to the safe to collect dust. The gun is not one of the smartest buys I have made. I intend to only shoot club IPSC matches for practice using a PCC for recreation. The only time I am fast these days is one I am running to take a pee so its all for fun now.
Take Care
Bob
ps Sight radius means nothing if you are using a red dot or scope...right.
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