Shooting Double Action

Good morning Calmex,

A video ! Great ! You are not mean with your advices. And that is great too !

Well, right from the start, I have to tell you that I have made my choice some years ago on the "locking-up" technique versus the steady and "non-stop" motion technique for Double Action revolver shooting. I have chosen the steady and "non-stop" motion technique and I will not revisit my choice.

My best book on the subject remains the "The secrets of DOUBLE-ACTION SHOOTING" by Bob Nichols, first published in 1950 and reprinted in 2021. I cannot summarize the book of Bob Nichols (obviously !), so I will take an excerpt from page 106 of the book, on which Bob Nichols confirms that, first, he was using the trigger control thechnique of Ed Mc Givern: "The secret of McGivern's double action trigger control is steady and non-stop motion. ... Now begin your trigger pull - and once having started it, never stop. Never falter, either. ... Make the trigger pull steady, unfaltering, and absolutely non-stop. Once started - follow through - never pause - never stop."

The book has 166 pages and you can imagine that there is much much more information in it, regarding Double Action revolver shooting. Bob Nichols was relying on Ed McGivern's technique and I am relying on both men.

By some stroke of luck, I do happen to own a Smith & Wesson Model 649 Bodyguard revolver and a Smith & Wesson Model 19 Combat Magnum snub nose revolver. Luck ? Maybe.
 
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Ganderite said:
When I used to shoot PPC, I had a pencil eraser glued to the inside trigger frame so that the trigger would come back and stop. Then it just took a squeeze to fire.

Is the video showing this? Or is it done by feel?
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You can do it by feel. Trigger stop lessens that learning curve in my experience, but doing it by feel eliminates the need for extra bits and pieces. - dan
 
Ganderite said:
I have a M38, which is very light - alloy frame. It would be a nice pocket gun. How is it related to a M49? It looks similar to yours.
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I have one of those with a boot grip on it. Great pocket gun. - dan
 
I did a bit of a polish job on a Dan Wesson 357 model 14, no way you could stage that trigger, it was too damn light, the main spring had been trimmed before I got it.
Single action it was OK, but they used a different . short throw on DA., Fast action.
you can get light strikes with hard primers, I have that problem with some on my model 19 as well.
When I was shooting Colts , I could , would stage a trigger, but with my smiths, I generally don't, thou I will ease off at the end if shooting 25 or so yrs .
I had a Ruger 2 in, but it still had service spring in it / heavy sucker, but smooth enough. I did a wolf spring in one before , and that was nice.
Never shoot a M38 or 39.
 
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I have used the rubber bumper technique to make a DA revolver before. This is how I used to shoot IDPA. The rubber is half of a pencil eraser, glued on with epoxy, and filed to the correct thickness. If the trigger is pulled lightly to moderately, it stops on the bumper, where a normal squeeze will fire. Or just pull straight thru for rapid fire.
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The Charter Arms Pitbull in 44Spl has always been a fun gun to shoot. It is all steel, but remarkably light. I have 3 of them. One is a 2" with a Crimson Trace laser. The only Crimson Trace I have and I quite like it.

Is the 44Spl a legal caliber in Mexico. Is a 200gr bullet at 900fps enough power? (800fps in the 2")


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Ganderite said:
I have used the rubber bumper technique to make a DA revolver before. This is how I used to shoot IDPA. The rubber is half of a pencil eraser, glued on with epoxy, and filed to the correct thickness. If the trigger is pulled lightly to moderately, it stops on the bumper, where a normal squeeze will fire. Or just pull straight thru for rapid fire.

The Charter Arms Pitbull in 44Spl has always been a fun gun to shoot. It is all steel, but remarkably light. I have 3 of them. One is a 2" with a Crimson Trace laser. The only Crimson Trace I have and I quite like it.

Is the 44Spl a legal caliber in Mexico. Is a 200gr bullet at 900fps enough power? (800fps in the 2")
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In a fight -- and down here, that's why you want to have a pistol, because you might get into one just being a normal person going about his/her day -- you cannot be worrying about silly stuff that can fail you. You need power, concealability and technique. The technique you have to supply. Or maybe, stay someplace you can call a policeman if you need help (for all that's worth these days). So dump the rubber bumpers.

The 44 Special 200 grain bullet at 800 fps with an expanding bullet or a sharp-shouldered SWC should be fine enough. However, in Mexico the .44 is not legal for civilian ownership or use. (Jail.) In revolvers you can own from .22 up to .38 Special (a .357 remarked to .38 Special can be registered but only use it with .38 Special ammo. You can load .357 power loads, but use .38 Special cases. Do not listen to whining from people who don't know about the dangers of doing this as it was originally done back in the 1930's by the ammo companies and called the .38 Special Heavy Duty load.). In autos, you can have a .22 or a .380 ACP (9mm kurz, 9mm corto, etc., etc.). .32 ACP and .25 ACP you can own but they will not issue transport permits for. I don't know the mentality behind it, it just is.

An excellent thread here on CGN -- that you started -- is named Double Action Snubby. In that thread I go into Mexican Gun law quite a bit and show photos indicating that Mexican Gun Ranges tend to be quite superior to most ranges in Canada as they have a permanence because some trollop is not going to come along in his pink hosiery and ban shooting at a whim. So they have some pretty nice ranges. Gun Club Membership in Mexico is more like being in a "swank" country club in Canada. It's a "class thing". Believe me, I look down my nose at people who are not Club members and suggest to any and all of you to do the same. Although I do admit, in Canada, being in a gun club does not carry the same pretentiousness. And it's too bad. Clint Eastwood said, to stay young, "don't let the old man in". Canada didn't do that exactly, but they sure let the pansy in. Not every Canadian did, but man, the country is hurting for sure.

Here's that thread so you don't have to look for it:
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1942156-Double-Action-Snubby
 
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calmex said:
Gun Club Membership in Mexico is more like being in a "swank" country club in Canada. It's a "class thing". Believe me, I look down my nose at people who are not Club members and suggest to any and all of you to do the same.
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Yes, I agree with you all the way. Gun Club members should - no, must - look down their nose at people who are not Gun Club members as if they were lesser people. Because they are. And that includes first and foremost the Government people - the ones who get their "expert" grade as soon as they get their title and their badge. "Expert" shooters from day one and "expert" shooters forever after. We must never confuse the word professional (getting paid to do something) with the word expert. HUGE difference !
 
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I took a bunch of guns to the range today and shot Double Action, again. It is not feeling so strange anymore.

Here is a Charter Arms 44Spl. I shot two of them, and both shot well. This was a very mild load. I will try a more normal load before considering a sight adjustment.

Charter Arms 44Spl 200SWC 4.5gr 7625

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Ganderite said:
I took a bunch of guns to the range today and shot Double Action, again. It is not feeling so strange anymore.

Here is a Charter Arms 44Spl. I shot two of them, and both shot well. This was a very mild load. I will try a more normal load before considering a sight adjustment.

Charter Arms 44Spl 200SWC 4.5gr 7625

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Lol, I have one of those too, though mine wears pachmeyers. - dan
 
calmex said:
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Wow, great vids and very interesting read. Sadly, I only have one double action revolver. A recent S&W Model 19 classic. Beautiful firearm, but I always wanted a snub revolver, although never could because of the laws. Anyhow, great thread.

p.s. By the way you have that Liam Neeson vibe and look from his Taken movies!
 
In Mexico you can't carry a 357, so you carry guns stamped 38Spl.

I have a Ruger SP101 in 38Spl. I was told that it was made the same as a 357 version and could take 357 pressures. For a few years I loaded 357 loads in 38Spl cases and shot them in this gun, with no ill effects. I recently acquired a Ruger Speed Six in 38Spl. Built like a tank. I have not researched it, but I suspect that it too will take 357 pressures.

Maybe the Rugers would be a source of powerful Mexican 38Spl carry guns?
 
Do the revolver makers perhaps do special runs of their .357 offerings stamped .38 for the Mexican market, just as they used to make 4.25" barrels for Canada?

The one Canadian-market revolver I have that I'm confident would enjoy .38 heavy-duty is stamped and chambered .357, and meanwhile I have a single-action .38 that would likely not enjoy that much pressure, so for my situation it makes a lot more sense to stay mild in .38 brass and go heavy in .357 brass.
 
old303 said:
Do the revolver makers perhaps do special runs of their .357 offerings stamped .38 for the Mexican market, just as they used to make 4.25" barrels for Canada?

The one Canadian-market revolver I have that I'm confident would enjoy .38 heavy-duty is stamped and chambered .357, and meanwhile I have a single-action .38 that would likely not enjoy that much pressure, so for my situation it makes a lot more sense to stay mild in .38 brass and go heavy in .357 brass.
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Yes. Otherwise Murphy will one load the 38 with the 357 pressure brass.

This is why I stopped making 357 pressure loads in 38 brass.
 
ravenzoom said:
Wow, great vids and very interesting read. Sadly, I only have one double action revolver. A recent S&W Model 19 classic. Beautiful firearm, but I always wanted a snub revolver, although never could because of the laws. Anyhow, great thread.

p.s. By the way you have that Liam Neeson vibe and look from his Taken movies!
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Hmmmm, if we should encounter each other in real life, I guess I must buy you some beer. Perhaps you'll be even more eloquent with the compliments after you've had a few suds? At my age now, I may still look 43 but I sure can't put up much of a fight. I need stunt-people for that sort of stuff now. However -- I still insist on doing my own "kiss the 20-something girl scenes" in the interest of authenticity. And I love the Model 19 Classic. If this stupid assinine ban ever goes away I will want either one of those or the Model 66 version RFN. And I'm working on getting myself a 2.5-inch or 4-inch old-style Model 19 down here to remark and register for use with high-velocity 160 grain LSWC ammo!

Ganderite said:
In Mexico you can't carry a 357, so you carry guns stamped 38Spl.

I have a Ruger SP101 in 38Spl. I was told that it was made the same as a 357 version and could take 357 pressures. For a few years I loaded 357 loads in 38Spl cases and shot them in this gun, with no ill effects. I recently acquired a Ruger Speed Six in 38Spl. Built like a tank. I have not researched it, but I suspect that it too will take 357 pressures.

Maybe the Rugers would be a source of powerful Mexican 38Spl carry guns?
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You are correct, exactly. In my own actual real-life proper Liam Neeson style, you must know that over the years I worked with several State Dept. types who were Field Officers or Case Officers in the lettered agency, and two of them had been sent to work in the S&W plant and the Colt Firearms plant during the late 1950's and early 1960's because they were both slated to work in an arms plant in Mexico City that supposedly manufactured Winchester Model 37 and Remington Model 52 single-shot shotguns, but which actually was also making the secret guns for the Vietnam war. The silenced guns and "clean" guns for the SOG teams and the fun-stuff for the LRRP teams. Whatever.

They both told me that when S&W switched from naming their guns -- eg.: Combat Masterpiece or Combat Magnum becoming the Model 15 and Model 19 respectively -- in 1957, the heat-treating standards became the same for all the guns and cylinders of the same frame. So a Model 15 cylinder from 1958 was heat treated exactly the same as a cylinder from a Model 19 in the same year. Frames as well, to prevent confusion. I saw 6 "Elmer Keith" Heavy Duty loads comprising of a 170 grain Lyman LSWC over 13.5 grains of 2400 in a .38 Special case fired out of a 6-inch Model 14-4 with no ill effects. Heavy recoil, lots of noise, and yet one-thumb ejection. And that load is more powerful than almost any .357 factory load today except perhaps Buffalo Bore.

So what you witnessed with the Rugers was correct. Colt Pythons made in .38 Special also have .357 tough cylinders and I'm sure there are many other examples out there. In Mexico, after the K-38 incident, we started coloring the primers of Heavy Duty loads with a permanent red marker so we ourselves can distinguish between standard pressure and high pressure loadings. However, people are fickle and that loaded round of .38 Special you pick up on a Mexican gunrange must be treated with distrust. It could be .357 pressure. So take care with range pick-ups on Mexican ranges because using .357 brass to make the same load gets you into Jail.

I've posted these before, but the Panama Hat man -- who I believe may have served as a part of the composite character of Agency Bill on Narcos and Narcos Mexico -- worked in the S&W Plant in the 1960's and his former boss (my late friend Phil Roettinger who was head of CIA Latin American until 1972) worked in S&W and the Colt Plant in the 1950's and both told me a lot about their time in S&W. Panama Bill and I even travelled together once to a S&W Collector's Association meeting, although we just sat and listened as he would never have been able to "back up his knowledge" of any statement he were to make. But a very interesting time for me, certainly, although I could never read him. But he told me about the frame and cylinder hardening before I actually saw the K-38/Heavy Duty load incident. I did a lot of stuff with the Mexican Army and Police over time, but often I had oversight and the oversight was usually Panama Bill pictured here. So yes, the Liam Neeson comment made me chuckle.

Training Mexican Rurales to serve in Chiappas between the EZLN and the Mexican Army.
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Training the Guanajuato State Police.
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I had also heard about Smith introducing the 357 strength cylinders into 38Spls at some point, but it was never clear to me when this happened. Since I have Smiths of various vintages, I was afraid that Murphy would load the wrong age gun and blow it up. I don't mind blowing up a Taurus (did 2 so far) but Smiths are like members of the family.

Why is there attention to such powerful 38Spl loads? Have there been self-defense situations where a regular 38 load did not do the job?
 
The more power factor the better when the target is shooting back at you!

I didn't think our friend Calmex had much use for revolvers that couldn't handle .38 HD, but he did mention using a red sharpie to mark the primers of those loads, so there must be some lighter-weight hardware there too.
 
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