Shooting Double Action

[calmex]

Accuracy ? Sure. Accuracy with a Power Factor hovering around 100 (148 gr. bullet at 700 f/s) and I am generous here. Big heavy revolvers. With a level of recoil you could not believe. No, you could not.

Why not use light concealable revolvers (about 20 ounces) and cartridges of 140 Power Factor, instead ? It could then be possible to justify the "Practical" adjective in the appellation. Otherwise, it is not.

I do agree with you, but I think the regular standard PPC which dates from the late 1950's is still a good way to learn the basics. But to become a fun and practical competition today, it has to evolve. In Mexico, we don't allow "PPC revolvers" per se. We have a Target Class where stock guns with barrels longer than 5-inches right up to 8 3/8 inches can compete. No non-factory-issue heavy barrels and/or PPC sight ramps are allowed. Trigger jobs are allowed. Change the grips if you like. Color the sights or install a Gold Bead or a Red Ramp, it's all good. The Power Factor is 125 I think. If you're using Aguila factory .38 Special ammo, then you are under the minimum Power Factor but you're using Aguila factory ammo for gosh sakes and how good can that be? .380 CAL guns like 1911's 5-inch or 6-inch are allowed but they run at a 140 Power Factor and often 150 so they are not a problem. They are very accurate and it's perfectly acceptable to use them. I have never been beaten by a 1911 longslide here in Mexico, but I can shoot as good a score with one of them as I can with my best revolver. So they're cool.

We eliminated the sitting and the kneeling positions right away when we redid the rules for the Queretero/San Miguel Clubs. Instead of kneeling you are shooting either over a barrel or over a table which represents a barrel (depending on which range you are shooting on). We have added some moving-target stuff into the game and also the 7 and 10 yard stages from the NRA-Los Alamitos course to give the Target event a total of 90 rounds of which 24 are shot out at 50 yards. Again: we don't care about long barrels in the Target class. It's the friggin' Target class.

Service Class is service guns. Revolvers with barrel lengths from 3 inch to 5 inches and automatics the same. This is where you find the Model 10's and the Model 19's and the 686 revolvers or 4-inch Heavy Dutys or Model 28's and 27's including the 3.5 inch 27's. And the Glock 19/25's and Glock 17's or the Beretta 92's and Colt Commanders in .380 Cal. This is my favorite class, a 60 round course and very close to the original PPC but there's only one left-hand barricade at 25, the sitting and kneeling are replaced with "over the barrel or table" and a standing straight up - no support -- 6 shots at 50 because you know what? You might have to. Get over it. Sometimes we replace the fire 6: reload, fire 6 more at 10 yards in 18 seconds with a 10-yard moving target that moves between two barricades 60 feet apart in 6 seconds and you shoot 6 left-to-right, reload PDQ because it's coming right back after a 4-second delay with 6 more right-to-left. Service Class. Gotta love it.

My favorite Service class revolver would be the S&W Model 19, remarked and registered as a .38 Special. In automatics, the Beretta 92fs in .380 Cal is really popular as it is very accurate.

We have a "Super-snubby" class which is all the 2.5 inch .357's -- the Model 19, the 66, the 686, and the Python as well as the Diamondback .38 and the Model 15 or 2-inch Model 10's and 64's. The Super-snubby course is basically the PPC course out to 25 yards with 6-shots chopped off making it only a 30 round course. Sometimes just for giggles the 10-yard stage is replaced by a back-and-forth with a speedy reload using the Mover.

And finally, we also have a Snubby class. The box the gun has to fit in is pretty small being designed around the Colt DS with stock grips. If the box won't close you're in Super-snubby. A 5-shot Ruger SP101 probably wouldn't fit although it's technically a snubby but we've never had one show up so I can't say for sure but we'd probably allow it as a snubby. I don't know, Ganderite you say you have one, is it small enough for pocket carry? Because if it's not maybe we'd not allow it.

After your text, the photo of you and your daughter had me tracking over a bit to that tent-pole base. "SIX ROUNDS KNEELING, RIGHT HAND, RIGHT SIDE OF THE BARRICADE" from the Service Match prompts came readily to mind. If I had to reload I'd be coming back out on the left, maybe prone to vary the vertical position too.

But then I don't wear white trousers and don't have to think about grass stains on my knees.

I miss all the "finger" tests, but do usually manage 530/600 or so with light loads. Planning to load some up warmer now, and see how that works.

We have our own classification system based more on the NRA Action system than IPSC. Using the 600 point 60-shot PPC as an example:
0 to 359 you're a Novice (Novato)

359 to 419 you're a Marksman
420 to 479 you're a Sharpshooter
480 to 539 you're an Expert
540 to 569 you're a Master
570 to 600 you're a High Master

We have no High Masters however Castlebravo and myself have both shot scores touching the mark....but it needs to be twice in a row to move up so no, we have no High Masters. The last time I shot a PPC was two years ago on the San Miguel range with a bunch of the crew and I used a borrowed 4-inch Model 19 and shot a 565. I was proud of that. That Model 19 had a 1/10th inch fiber-optic Dawson front sight on it which was just marvelous. I sorta wanna get something like it for myself.

If the scores for rankings look low for the PPC remember that powder-puff loads and gadget guns aren't allowed so perhaps that makes it a bit harder. Either way, it's a ton of fun. We have a badge that says "500 Club" for anyone who shoots above 500 twice and I always tell the guys to play that up because I think if you can do 500/600 on the PPC with a Service gun and ammo, you're good to go for a life of adventure if you want it.

I think the PPC -- as a basic course -- is a good course to learn all the basics on. Accuracy and solid cover are also very important because you won't be the Star of the shooting match once the bad guys riddle you with AK bullets and move on as if you were just some sort of bug. The IPSC prance and dance too often seems to instill in one the idea to leave cover to run over there. If I leave cover to run anywhere, it's going to be in a direction away from the action unless I just can't. Oh, and this "your pistol is just what you use to fight your way to your rifle" always galls me. You won't have a rifle, unless you take it as a battlefield pickup from someone you already shot. And once you start shooting, there will probably be a lot of rounds coming your way so leaving cover to go grab that AK ten yards in front of you seems like a real winner of a plan. I mean, maybe you could, but don't count on it. Learn to shoot. Learn to make headshots for sure at 25 (the old NRA Falling Plate match is great fun with a snubby) and then learn to do it from a rest or prone at 50.

And make the matches fun without a lot of screaming, power-hungry R.O.'s acting like newly-promoted Corporals. At least, that's what we try to do down here. I think a lot of the spirit has been killed in Canada by Trudy and his crew but once they're gone, it should come back. It needs to happen.

 

[calmex]

I was at a dinner just last Wednesday and my host was talking about his love of the "Run and Gun" courses. Knowing him to be a solid member of the Mexican "tink, tink crowd"* I told him I thought they were somewhat impractical and any decent shot wasn't going to have to "Run and Gun". With the first few shots, accurately placed, the problem might already be solved. Leaving cover to prance around in the open didn't strike me as in intelligent idea.

"But you might have to," he retorted.

"Oh, I might have to move," I replied, "But that might be in the other direction because once they know where I am, if they have grenades and they often do, I need to be somewhere else." This seemed to perplex him, and he couldn't seem to get it into his head that 5-shot snubby revolvers aren't great for running around in the open with, charging towards well-armed opponents.

Finally, he tried to appeal to the old IPSC-guy in me. "Have you seen," he said with a grin, "that CZ is going to make a version of the Shadow 2 in .380 ACP?"

"Does it have locking lugs?" I asked. Because if it did, it could be hot-rodded for sure.

He shook his head. "No, why would you want a .380 pistol to have locking lugs? That would just make it jam." Man, some people just don't get it. When the whole "it's just a Sport thing started" it was right at the end of my time as Section Co-ordinator for IPSC/Manitoba. I protested, I said it wouldn't help, but "oh, no, we have to give a bit or we look too fanatic. We want them to see us as the Sportsmen that we are." Okay, Sportsmen. How'd that work out for us? Yeah, yeah, I know. But really.... . In the end, I towed the "it's just a Sport" line right along with everybody else but that sure didn't work out. It may have bought some time, although, I'm skeptical that it did.

*A rather cynical term for the guys outside of the Queretero/San Miguel group who shoot IPSC courses with automatics designed to work with the stock factory .380 ACP round. Dramatic amounts of metal are cut out of the slides of regular 9mm guns and light springs and .380 chambers are used to present you with 15 shot pistols with the power of a decent beer fart. (Shakes head and grimaces.)

 

[Snowy Owl]

I do agree with you, but I think the regular standard PPC which dates from the late 1950's is still a good way to learn the basics. But to become a .. practical competition today, it has to evolve. In Mexico, we don't allow "PPC revolvers" per se. No non-factory-issue heavy barrels. We eliminated the sitting and the kneeling positions right away. You won't have a rifle, ... Learn to make headshots for sure at 25 and then learn to do it from a rest or prone at 50.

I think a lot of the spirit has been killed in Canada by Trudy and his crew but once they're gone, it should come back. It needs to happen.

Combat Shooting while sitting. Great. One of my favorite pet peeves. Why not add a lazyboy chair - same price ? Head shots at 25 - yards or meters. Standing. Double Action all the way. Always Double Action. Any distance. No bullets at optical speed.

Trudeau and his henchmen can do just about anything. They will still get reelected no matter what. Canadians like him. Canadians like their politicians when they are girly men. Effeminate men. The Canadian political spectrum is steadily moving Left. Steadily. Canadian gun owners are bad people. Canadian gun owners who know how to shoot straight are really - but really - bad people. Canadian non gun owners are good people. That simple.

 

[Snowy Owl]

... With the first few shots, accurately placed, the problem might already be solved. ... 5-shot snubby revolvers aren't great for running around in the open with, charging towards well-armed opponents.
... we have to give a bit or we look too fanatic. We want them to see us as the Sportsmen that we are." Okay, Sportsmen. How'd that work out for us? Yeah, yeah, I know.

Instead of running around in the open, charging towards well-armed opponents, maybe we could SIT DOWN and make comfortable before shooting optical speed bullets at those well-armed opponents - PPC style ? No need to take cover if we SIT DOWN.

Okay, Sportmen. Up to now, it has worked marvelously for us. As can be seen by everyone. Things are looking better than ever.

 

[calmex]

Can't disagree, but let's be fair: Sure, realistic training is "better" than playing gun games. But playing gun games is a heck of a lot "better" than thoughtless plinking - Or not shooting at all.

(of course, now I've said that, someone is going to bring up a gun game that really is pointless)

I like gun games. My favorite, when I was young and had the tools, was to take a pair of Colt Navy copies and throw a tin can out in front of me and try to make it "walk along" ahead of me, slowly walking forward myself. A la Wild Bill, the true Prince of Pistoleers.

Shooting the NRA Falling Plate match using a snubby and the same time limits but with only 5 plates per string is another. Gun games are rarely useless if you can learn from them. I sure hope Canada flushes her Turd quickly so we can all get back to doing this stuff.

 

[calmex]

Really enjoying these insights and expertise you are offering up Calmex. Keep it up please. The Canadian Tire thing makes me curious. Not that there is a damn thing wrong with working at CTC.

A person needs to work 20 years after the age of 18 in Canada to qualify for the OAS and CPP. I had only worked 15 years in Canada by the age of 32 when I left for Mexico. So I came back at age 58 to finish the time off (and you only get half of what you'd get if you had worked the 40 years it's all based on). I'm 65 now, although I look 43 obviously, but when I came back CTC was there for me. Although this time around, someone who worked for me in 1989 is now my boss in this new reality. And the first 15 were in the Brandon store. Now I'm in Oliver.

I do not believe that any job or any salary available in Canada will give a person the lifestyle of a simple upper-middle-class businessman in Central Mexico. My own -- honest opinion -- is that Canada is not playing handball against the wall of Mexico's gymnasium when it comes to "quality of life" for anyone who loves living. Oh, sure, you have free medical and the upper specialties of which like Cancer care and Radiation therapy are world class and even the Mexicans say so. But at the lower end, quality depends on who you have as the family doctor and that's often luck of the draw. Other "supposed" advantages Canadians have are: nobody can have more than a drink or two without risking being criminalized by the system for driving home. Nobody in Mexico on the other hand -- not even the cops -- gives a crap and yet it doesn't seem any more dangerous driving here in Mexico once you learn to be a defensive driver than back in Oliver, B.C. . And I've spent a lot more time driving here than up there. And yet Canada keeps doubling down on drinking and driving. What a joke. Okay, another supposed advantage is the rampant feminism. Oh, and all the diversity at the expense of ability. And let's not forget the need to have insurance for almost anything (Mexican houses don't burn and are pretty bulletproof). I almost forgot another big advantage of Canada is the need to heat and A/C the living spaces -- oh, wait, that's another one for the suck column.

No, you know what? There's not all that many advantages to life in Canada after all when I think of it. Yes, I know millions are lining up to get into Canada. But that's because in the lower classes, countries like Mexico are really, really brutal places to live. So you need to stay out of that "lower class". And of course, the 3rd World is a much more dangerous world just sitting there than Canada is, at least, up to now. I can't help you there, living with danger is a learned thing that's no longer taught in Canada I'm afraid, except in some individual households.

My point is, quality of life in Canada sucks but there are a few, very few but a few, advantages to living in Canada. So I might as well work at Canadian Tire because it was there for me and there was no need to look around, I just flew up here and went to work. Everything I did outside of Canada: Immigrate into Mexico with an open work permit, marry into an upper-class political family, get in pretty solid with the Mexican military and Police, learn the language and the customs and assimilate -- these things and more offer me a lifestyle Canada will never offer at any salary (and let's not forget Mexico's 365 days of summer). So why not Canadian Tire?

I knew coming back for six years that it was gonna suck. But at least it was a job in the warmest climate in Canada. Maybe, in fact hopefully, if Pierre gets into office with a majority this state of suck can be clawed back a bit. Or even better, a lot. But right now, working in Canadian Tire and maintaining an inexpensive apartment in the Southern Okanagan for 6 months of the year to help fund my construction in Central Mexico for the rest of the year seems like a good deal to me. I don't know if it's a good deal for them, I hope it is but at least I have options. And the Oliver gun range is a decent set-up for a small town range.

Wally is on this thread, I should be seeing him this next week or so. He'll probably pop in and comment and he won't say anything much different than I'm saying. One thing I'd add is: the failure rate of Canadians and Americans moving to Mexico is awful high. The life skills needed to live and adapt successfully to the 3rd World are simply not taught in Canada. In their place, a certain rotten arrogance is fested on the students that places blinders on their ability to adapt to different systems quickly because they've been taught that the Canadian Way or the American Way is the only way. Sucks to be them, because I'm afraid it's not.

 

[redryder]

A man with a plan. Sounds like you got it all worked out. Good luck with it. Me? Never had a plan, still don't. Maybe someday when I mature a bit more.

 

[Ganderite]

380 with locking lugs. I have soem Star Super S 380s. They are miniature 1911s, and can be load hotter than the blowbacks. But they are single stacks. The felt recoil is noticeably less than a blow back like a PPK/s.

 

[old303]

I was at a dinner just last Wednesday and my host was talking about his love of the "Run and Gun" courses. Knowing him to be a solid member of the Mexican "tink, tink crowd"* I told him I thought they were somewhat impractical and any decent shot wasn't going to have to "Run and Gun". With the first few shots, accurately placed, the problem might already be solved. Leaving cover to prance around in the open didn't strike me as in intelligent idea.

...

The moment you make a game out of your combat training a lot of people are going to start focusing on moving up the scoresheet and forget to think about preparation for a real fight.

And we don't want to alarm ourselves, our friends and family, or the authorities by thinking and talking about deadly combat at our local friendly civilian range, so keeping things in game context is safer. Not having any particular threat on the horizon, playing at power factors from plink to kablam and timed and untimed and near and far and all gives a toolkit from which something can be improvised if it ever hits the fan.

 

[calmex]

The moment you make a game out of your combat training a lot of people are going to start focusing on moving up the scoresheet and forget to think about preparation for a real fight.

And we don't want to alarm ourselves, our friends and family, or the authorities by thinking and talking about deadly combat at our local friendly civilian range, so keeping things in game context is safer. Not having any particular threat on the horizon, playing at power factors from plink to kablam and timed and untimed and near and far and all gives a toolkit from which something can be improvised if it ever hits the fan.

It's a bit different here. In Salamanca, the gunshots at night are from just across the street sometimes. Other nights are quiet. But it's nice to have something on the nightstand for sure.

I remember Salamanca 30 years ago, it was peaceful and quiet and polluted from the refinery. Now it's still polluted and pretty dangerous at night. I have yet to be talking to anyone this trip who needs things sugar-coated so as to not alarm them. Reality smacks pretty hard for the easily alarmed I suppose. I'm just amazed that there are STILL Mexican shooters who are able to think "Gamesman style". Someone should make a music video to that name.

 

[Snowy Owl]

Reality smacks pretty hard for the easily alarmed I suppose.

It does indeed. But nothing to worry about. Our guardians in uniform are just around the corner - at any time. They will take care of the bad guys. But if you legally own a firearm in Canada - any firearm - you are a bad guy, too. We have to keep that in mind - always.

So, I am a bad guy. They, our guardians in uniform, are the good guys. Yeah. Sure.

 

[calmex]

Another area where double-action skills are important would be the double-action first-shot automatics. I have a Beretta 92fs. I like it but that grip is large. I have yet to get myself some thin grips to see how much that helps but the Beretta itself is fine and very accurate. (I recommend the M*Carbo spring kit that Calgary Shooting Centre sells, it's just amazing what it does for both the single and double-action trigger pull!) Anyway, back in the '80's I was always choked when I saw Don Johnson running into combat with his Bren Ten uncocked hammer-down with his finger on the trigger for a double-action first shot. The ex-IPSC Co-ordinator in me thought that was just wrong on a couple of counts: finger on the trigger instead of alongside the trigger guard, and why handicap yourself with a double-action first-shot pull if you're expecting action?

Turns out, his gun coach Jim Zubiena -- known for his fantastic draw and Mozambique Drill in the 1st Season episode "Calderone's Return Part 1" -- probably coached him to do that because a double-action first shot was an LAPD requirement at the time. And it makes sense: if you're facing three or four armed operators in dark shades with buzz hair-cuts and pants bloused into their boots (with ballistic vests that sport large white initials of pure consonants that could mean anything) and everyone is aiming at everyone else and screaming "drop the gun, drop it now - No you drop it, I mean it --blah, blah, blah" the last thing you want is your gun discharging because the BP is running high. Also, those long hammer falls of a Beretta or Sig or CZ tend to fire hardened primers a lot better than the striker guns do on the first strike. And they allow an immediate second strike if needed, something the strikers don't do.

I have written on a couple of different threads about the problems we had getting the Glocks* to fire on the hard Tecnos Industrias primers used on factory ammo made here in Mexico. I got a lot of feedback from the fanbois about how I should try to use better primers -- as if we could just go out and buy what we wanted -- but reality has come back to bite those guys me thinks. With the primer shortage, people now have to buy whatever they can get and a lot of what's available are Ginex primers from Bosnia or Servicios Aventuras primers from Argentina and they are hard to set off. My attitude on the strikers can be paraphrased from Tom Selleck in Quigley Down Under as "I said I didn't like the striker pistols, I didn't say I wouldn't use one if it was all I could get...." .

My own method for the autos is to get my finger around the trigger to the first knuckle (hard to do with a Beretta but we'll see about those thin grips and report back) and just pull straight through smoothly like with a Colt Python or Detective Special action that resists the staging method (though not all do). The immediate switch from double-action first shot to single-action second shot takes a bit of practice to master but I find that doing 2.5 second two-shot draw-and-fires at 10 yards tends to help work the bugs out.

*There are some red (28 Newton) or blue (31 Newton) striker springs available from various stores in the U.S. that hit a lot harder than the standard (24 Newton) Glock striker springs and tend to set off hard primers very well. I think everyone I know in Mexico that uses a Glock is using the blue one, that's what I had in my own Glock. Perhaps there is some difficulty obtaining the best "match trigger" on a Glock using such a heavy spring but if the pistol doesn't fire it's not good for anything anyway. If I do form a security company, we won't be issuing striker fired guns anyway after seeing all those misfires on the hard primers a decade ago.

I really got into the double-action auto after U.S. Consul Phil Maher got me a S&W 3904 to go along with the S&W Model 49 snubby revolver I usually carried when I was out with him doing "Colonel work". The 3904 is certainly not ideal but I found it very reliable and sufficiently concealable -- although not as good as a pocket snubby of course. This photo is one I took the night the Colonel dropped by my house to inform me that I was now the proud owner of 10-shot DA automatic! Beside it is the S&W 669 Colonel Maher himself always carried in a Galco Miami Classic. I spent a lot of time at the 10-yard distance from the Club's falling plate rack doing 2.5 second/2-shot/draw-and-fires on two plates to get the trigger technique down. I owned a Glock 19/25 at the time but it did not always fire on the first shot with the hard Tecnos primers as we had not yet discovered those powerful blue springs. The S&W always fired. Case closed.