Shooting Double Action

[calmex]

Why is there attention to such powerful 38Spl loads? Have there been self-defense situations where a regular 38 load did not do the job?

Almost 50 years ago, a business-Ed teacher of mine told me that a big responsibility of being a manager was to "take care of yourself", because if you go down, who's running the shop? So make sure you don't go down. If you are the only person at the garden party who is conspicously armed -- because you don't have an actual CCW and could never get one because pussy-politicians have made that impossible -- then you're it.

If three bad guys with AK's from Los Putos Lobos appear in the doorway with the intention of shooting up the party while they look for one individual in particular they've been sent to eliminate -- that's bad, really bad. You are suddenly in that wrong place at the wrong time. This happens every week here in Mexico, somewhere in the country, and slimey pussy-politicians and effiminate girly-men allowed this to happen because they effectively disarmed the civil population by preventing them access to defensive firearms. Which is what effiminate girly-men always tend to want to do.

So there you are, near a brick and stone pillar near the bar (where else would you be?) when a disturbance near the entrance to the walled enslosure the party is being held in attracts your attention. Three guys, with AK's, and one of them has just fired five shots at a nearby table of young girls with their mother. This is not the time or place for a weak little target pistol round. Usually, the bad-buys have vests on. They may have a grenade or two. The tactical situation sucks. You probably have a 5-shot S&W snubby or perhaps a 6-shot Colt DS in a pocket holster because frankly, in a warm climate, that's about the best you can do and not end up in trouble yourself. The big advantage you have is that because you appear to be unarmed, bad people will get closer to you and perhaps not just shoot you on sight at distance. Can you make three quick headshots using a 5-shot snubby at ranges up to 20 yards with screaming people in panic all around you and the targets? I don't know, but one thing's for sure: if you hit, the target has to fall. There will be no back-up and once you fire, you'll become the life of the party for sure.

A 5-shot S&W snubby with a steel frame and adequate concealment grips shooting a 160 grain LWSC bullet at 850 fps (powerfactor 136 where a minimum 140 would be desireable) is somewhat painful. Lots of recoil and noise and you should try to shoot from cover because if you don't you won't last long enough to get all three. Reloading is probably not going to happen because you probably won't get time. If the snubby has an aluminum frame or scandium frame, it is much lighter and easier to carry but the 136 PF load will bring tears to your eyes when you touch it off. This is the problem: concealed carry without proper documentation requires more than just adequate concealment, so weapon size and weight are concerns. Power is also a concern. The .38 Special cartridge, probably loaded to at least service specs and desireably +P power is about the best you're going to have. A Colt DS gives you 6-shots but the older, more commonly available ones don't like +P loadings and they are harder to shoot. It's a trade-off. It's always a trade-off. I do not consider the .380 ACP cartridge adequately powered myself. .380 Cal is another story but the guns are too big for undocumented carry.

I have said it before and I'll say it again: I'm always fascinated by good movies or TV shows where the hero has to solve all the Worlds's problems with just a 5-shot S&W or 6-shot Colt DS carried concealed upon his person because that's what the actual problem is going to be that's presented if things go south. Really high-level garden parties will have armed security, but the fun, vibrant middle-class garden parties never do. You're the armed security -- and if you do it correctly -- nobody else knows it.

The more power factor the better when the target is shooting back at you!

I didn't think our friend Calmex had much use for revolvers that couldn't handle .38 HD, but he did mention using a red sharpie to mark the primers of those loads, so there must be some lighter-weight hardware there too.

I want as much power as I can get. I tend to pooh-pooh anything under a 200 PF, that's 200 power-factor for the uninitiated. That would be a 200 grain bullet at 1000 fps, as power-factor is simply bullet-weight times velocity and cut off 3 zeros. Hollowpoints are illegal in Mexico but in your house or property you'll get away with it. MP Molds makes a nice 170 grain LWSC Keith mould that's 4-cavity and has the hollow-point inserts that can make it into a 162 grain LWSCHP. This would be my chosen bullet. I would use that when I thought I could get away with it (I may have 5 in the cylinder at such a garden party but any bullets in speedstrips or a 5-shot H.K.S. would be 160 grain Lee TLSWC bullets -- which actually weight 162 grains by average, such a coincidence -- because if I see I'm about to be frisked, not having obvious H.P. bullets on me would really help the cause and I could probably lose the 5 in the cylinder overboard if I had any prior warning at all....).

From any 2.5-inch .357 remarked to .38 Special, that same 162 grain LSWCHP could be coaxed up to 1,180 and 1,150 fps for sure. Loud and somewhat painful to fire, it's easier on the hand in that big a gun than the 136 grain load was in the steel snubby but no where near concealable enough. But it would probably be a good stopper, though. Probably.

Out of any 4-inch .357 remarked to .38 Special (think a 4-inch Model 19 or 66 here) you'd be able to get that bullet up to 1,280 fps and if you want to use a full 13.5 grains of 2400 in the .38 Special case you should just break 1,300. That's a 210 grain Power-factor and it will make the cows run back to the barn when you fire that one. The whole deal is a trade-off. People who have never, ever "stepped out" into the real world tend to have a lot of silly theories about what they'd like to have but it all gets cut back drastically when you stipulate that armed carry will not be documented (because we're in the real world here dealing with scummy, corrupt, girly-men politicians who have their own armed security paid for by the State) and since we're in a warm climate, it has to be very effectively hidden. So there goes 90% of the "neat stuff" people think they're going to buy and use in these situations.

Yes, I'd like a 200+ Power-factor all the time when I step out, but usually reality gets in the way and somewhere between 130 to 140 is the power-factor that I have to work with.

A photo of me and my daughter at a middle-class garden-party in late January, 2016 just before I came back here to Canada. She is not armed. I have a 5-shot S&W snubby in my right-front pocket just under the guayabera shirt (a shirt-style I am fond of and if you are thinking of buying me a shirt for Christmas, please look at the fancy but mostly white guayabera line size L or G if it's in Mexico). I may have a 6-shot speedstrip in my left front pocket. Speedloaders tend to print quite a bit and it's warm here. And she's not really that much taller than me: it's the spikes. Yes, I really dress this way sometimes.

 

[Ganderite]

I have a whole bunch of 38 revolvers. Never counted them, but I guess 30+. I have never carried outside the house, but did carry inside for a month or two when the police warned me that we may be the target of a home invasion. The local detachment seems to have an excellent intelligence program.

I quickly discovered that carrying a pistol is a pain. It digs in the ribs. It gets in the way in some chairs.

I did pocket carry a 38 snubbie in a pocket holster. I tried the Colt Cobra (a light 6 rounder) and a light J frame. With your heavy duty loads, I can see why the Colt DS (Detective Spl) would be your choice. It is all steel. But it is a brick in the pocket.

Thank you for all your insights. I guess there is no need to ask you how you feel about our current gov't.....

 

[calmex]

Thank you for all your insights. I guess there is no need to ask you how you feel about our current gov't.....

I will be blunt although I doubt I will be heeded.

Any Government that does not include a clear, non-politicized pathway to defensive Licensed Concealed Carry is backing the bad-guys. And thus, has no business being in power in a democracy unless it's a democracy of sheep. The answer, of course, should you find yourself inside a country run by such horrible governors (or one simply chalk-full of sheep) is "Undocumented Concealed Carry", and that only when circumstances dictate it might be prudent. When you thought -- and had been warned -- that you might be a home invasion target you carried. You weren't really "letter of the law" allowed to, but because the danger of doing so was greater than the danger of not doing so, you did so. You accessed the risk and made the right decision, never mind the law.

I have found that North American men and especially women are very, very poor evaluators of risk. They will blather on for hours about how they had a thousand shares of Moderna and sold just before the bottom fell out to explain to me why their risk assessment capabilities are excellent: but they could not tell me which of two darkened streets might be the better one to walk down coming home slightly drunk and inadequately armed from a party in a small town in Central Guanajuato, or Central Honduras, or Central Guatemala, or even Central freezing Kelowna. But there are places and venues where you are more likely to be targeted than others -- and that's when you carry undocumented. If you are living and working in Central Mexico, I maintain you must carry all the time and leave the gun on your nightstand unless you have a bigger one already on or in the nightstand. But that's just me and my take on it.

I should point out here that when I sit at garden parties with North Americans who are not gun-club members by my side, I am told I tend to come off as a bit, well, hard line about such things. With the Mexicans I tend to prefer to sit with, they're often right up there equal to me in their points of view on the topic of Public Security and your roll in it.

Jeff Cooper once sent me a blurb he had written in which he put forward the idea that the 5-shot S&W or 6-shot Colt .38 Special snubbys were perhaps the solution to the growing crime problem Worldwide. Simply issue one or the other to every honest citizen -- with some training -- and let matters take their course. He stipulated that violent crime would go down dramatically especially after a large swath of bag-guys had been shot. I wish I still had that gestetnered article -- that's how long ago it was -- but I do not. I remember one quote from it was more or less "the .38 Special snubnose is powerful enough to save your life, especially if your opponent does not realize you have one, but World Domination is probably out of the question." I do not remember ever seeing this article actually in print but I am glad he sent it to me so I was able to read it because it was an interesting take on the problem that I agree with more than I do not.

That's how I feel.

 

[Ganderite]

I will be blunt although I doubt I will be heeded.



I have found that North American men and especially women are very, very poor evaluators of risk. They will blather on for hours about how they had a thousand shares of Moderna and sold just before the bottom fell out to explain to me why their risk assessment capabilities are excellent: but they could not tell me which of two darkened streets might be the better one to walk down coming home slightly drunk and inadequately armed from a party in a small town in Central Guanajuato, or Central Honduras, or Central Guatemala, or even Central freezing Kelowna. But there are places and venues where you are more likely to be targeted than others -- and that's when you carry undocumented. If you are living and working in Central Mexico, I maintain you must carry all the time and leave the gun on your nightstand unless you have a bigger one already on or in the nightstand. But that's just me and my take on it.

That's how I feel.

We are poor at evaluating risk because we think and evaluate using our own value system.

The bad guys are just hungry predators. They are like sharks, eating the easy targets. A shark does not think about the kids or parents of the tasty little grouper he just ate. It was just an easy target.

We can't think like a bad guy, so won't see the risks. Unless, of course, we learn the hard way.

 

[dan belisle]

I will be blunt although I doubt I will be heeded.

Any Government that does not include a clear, non-politicized pathway to defensive Licensed Concealed Carry is backing the bad-guys. And thus, has no business being in power in a democracy unless it's a democracy of sheep. The answer, of course, should you find yourself inside a country run by such horrible governors (or one simply chalk-full of sheep) is "Undocumented Concealed Carry", and that only when circumstances dictate it might be prudent. When you thought -- and had been warned -- that you might be a home invasion target you carried. You weren't really "letter of the law" allowed to, but because the danger of doing so was greater than the danger of not doing so, you did so. You accessed the risk and made the right decision, never mind the law.

I have found that North American men and especially women are very, very poor evaluators of risk. They will blather on for hours about how they had a thousand shares of Moderna and sold just before the bottom fell out to explain to me why their risk assessment capabilities are excellent: but they could not tell me which of two darkened streets might be the better one to walk down coming home slightly drunk and inadequately armed from a party in a small town in Central Guanajuato, or Central Honduras, or Central Guatemala, or even Central freezing Kelowna. But there are places and venues where you are more likely to be targeted than others -- and that's when you carry undocumented. If you are living and working in Central Mexico, I maintain you must carry all the time and leave the gun on your nightstand unless you have a bigger one already on or in the nightstand. But that's just me and my take on it.

I should point out here that when I sit at garden parties with North Americans who are not gun-club members by my side, I am told I tend to come off as a bit, well, hard line about such things. With the Mexicans I tend to prefer to sit with, they're often right up there equal to me in their points of view on the topic of Public Security and your roll in it.

Jeff Cooper once sent me a blurb he had written in which he put forward the idea that the 5-shot S&W or 6-shot Colt .38 Special snubbys were perhaps the solution to the growing crime problem Worldwide. Simply issue one or the other to every honest citizen -- with some training -- and let matters take their course. He stipulated that violent crime would go down dramatically especially after a large swath of bag-guys had been shot. I wish I still had that gestetnered article -- that's how long ago it was -- but I do not. I remember one quote from it was more or less "the .38 Special snubnose is powerful enough to save your life, especially if your opponent does not realize you have one, but World Domination is probably out of the question." I do not remember ever seeing this article actually in print but I am glad he sent it to me so I was able to read it because it was an interesting take on the problem that I agree with more than I do not.

That's how I feel.

Agree 110%. I'd be happy to buy you a cervesa or three and talk guns next time I'm south of south of the border. - dan

 

[Ganderite]

You should spend the summer touring Canada, speaking to gun clubs. We would love to hear your stories.

And your daughter is welcome, too......

 

[calmex]

We are poor at evaluating risk because we think and evaluate using our own value system.

The bad guys are just hungry predators. They are like sharks, eating the easy targets. A shark does not think about the kids or parents of the tasty little grouper he just ate. It was just an easy target.

We can't think like a bad guy, so won't see the risks. Unless, of course, we learn the hard way.

When I talk to people up in Canada about my plans to try and form an Armed Mexican Security Company -- depending on the political fortunes of my Mexican Politician relatives who are all up for re-election in 2024 -- you'd be surprised how many respond with "can I have a job?" My response is usually several questions, each one accompanied by me touching a finger on my left hand as if each qualified as one point:

1. (little pinky) "Do you speak fluent Spanish? Or at least reasonably fluent, here, I'll continue this conversation in Spanish...." actually it rarely moves past point one.
2. (ring finger) "Do you have an open work permit for Mexico?" This is almost impossible to get. I know. I have one.
3. (The "F" finger) "Do you have at least five years documented of living and working fulltime in Mexico or Latin America?" (Usually a for sure no-go.)
4. (Left trigger finger) "Do you have a solid foundation in Mexican and Latin American history, from the conquest to date?" (Picture the "huh" look.)
5. (Left thumb) "Can you shoot 500/600 on the San Miguel/Queretero PPC or the regular PPC -- pick one -- using a stock S&W Model 10 4-inch heavy barrel using a 158 grain LSWC +P load?" (I mean, come on -- this is easy, and you need to have this much basic skill or you're kidding all of us.)

Everyone always thinks that showing up dressed like something out of a Navy SEALS movie, with black pants bloused into combat boots, and a team t-shirt with a buzz-cut, airport friendly click-on belt and the ballistic shades is what we're looking for. Actually, we're looking for someone that can carry on a complicated conversation in Spanish with a local Governor or Mayor and who dresses more like Miami Vice than Seal Team 6. That photo I posted up a few posts up of me in the Guayabera shirt is how I'd rather my team dress than something that gives them away as armed security. I realize that's not the idea most people have of the team they want to work for but that's fine because I probably don't want them to work for me either.

But whether or not I ever even get to set the thing up depends on the political fortunes of some close relatives in important local elections that I cannot control. So we'll just have to wait and see. There's other crap I could do, this is just one of my brain-dead ideas.

You should spend the summer touring Canada, speaking to gun clubs. We would love to hear your stories.

And your daughter is welcome, too......

You guys really need to get out more.

Agree 110%. I'd be happy to buy you a cervesa or three and talk guns next time I'm south of south of the border. - dan

Wait until I've got a place to put you up and you're on. I'm a lush for people willing to buy me beer and then let me pontificate.

 

[Snowy Owl]

The .38 Special cartridge, probably loaded to at least service specs and desireably +P power is about the best you're going to have. ... I want as much power as I can get. ... Yes, I'd like a 200+ Power-factor all the time when I step out, but usually reality gets in the way and somewhere between 130 to 140 is the power-factor that I have to work with.

Reality check. You have obviously pondered the question at some length. So, the Power Factor IS important, still very important, notwithstanding all the garbage that is published nowadays in some gun rags. Colonel Cooper was not that far away in the left field, after all. Not that far, no ?

And you write some pretty good prose, Calmex. Pretty good.

 

[redryder]

Speaking of PPC and all, y’all do realize the #1 world champ in most everything ppc, and has been for a few years is a Canadian from nw Ontario. One whole wonder.

 

[VanMan]

Speaking of PPC and all, y’all do realize the #1 world champ in most everything ppc, and has been for a few years is a Canadian from nw Ontario. One whole wonder.

We have the other member of the #1 PPC team in the world over here out West. I see him shoot here at the range a couple times a week. Tight groups!

 

[Wally]

I'm a lush for people willing to buy me beer and then let me pontificate.

I'm counting on this haha


Here's a question. From an economic point of view, why do these companies even bother making both .38spl and .357 pistols? They are so similar I don't even understand the value of .38spl. is it just so they can make light weight aluminum 38s or something? Is 38spl more accurate when fired from a slightly shorter 38spl chamber?

I'm shocked that I'm suddenly so interested in wheel guns... They had never really appealed to me before.

 

[Snowy Owl]

We have the other member of the #1 PPC team in the world over here out West. I see him shoot here at the range a couple times a week. Tight groups!

PPC = Practical Pistol Course.
PPC = Practical Police Course.
PPC = Practical Pistol Combat.
PPC = Police Pistol Combat.
PPC = Precision Pistol Competition.

Which one appellation is it this week ?

Accuracy ? Sure. Accuracy with a Power Factor hovering around 100 (148 gr. bullet at 700 f/s) and I am generous here. Big heavy revolvers. With a level of recoil you could not believe. No, you could not.

Why not use light concealable revolvers (about 20 ounces) and cartridges of 140 Power Factor, instead ? It could then be possible to justify the "Practical" adjective in the appellation. Otherwise, it is not.

 

[dan belisle]

PPC = Practical Pistol Course.
PPC = Practical Police Course.
PPC = Practical Pistol Combat.
PPC = Police Pistol Combat.
PPC = Precision Pistol Competition.

Which one appellation is it this week ?

Accuracy ? Sure. Accuracy with a Power Factor hovering around 100 (148 gr. bullet at 700 f/s) and I am generous here. Big heavy revolvers. With a level of recoil you could not believe. No, you could not.

Why not use light concealable revolvers (about 20 ounces) and cartridges of 140 Power Factor, instead ? It could then be possible to justify the "Practical" adjective in the appellation. Otherwise, it is not.

Because it became a game, where points mattered more than training. IPSC went the same way, though not as extremely. Cooper tried to make it more practical (where the power factors came from), but it seems the gamesmen always come to dominate. More people like to play than like to train, I guess. - dan

 

[alpining]

.... More people like to play than like to train, I guess. - dan

Can't disagree, but let's be fair: Sure, realistic training is "better" than playing gun games. But playing gun games is a heck of a lot "better" than thoughtless plinking - Or not shooting at all.

(of course, now I've said that, someone is going to bring up a gun game that really is pointless)

 

[calmex]

We have the other member of the #1 PPC team in the world over here out West. I see him shoot here at the range a couple times a week. Tight groups!

PPC really teaches a person how to shoot tight groups if you want to get good at. And there's nothing wrong with the format: it just needs updating a bit to make it more practical to those who want more practicality.

Speaking of PPC and all, y’all do realize the #1 world champ in most everything ppc, and has been for a few years is a Canadian from nw Ontario. One whole wonder.

I resigned as IPSC/Manitoba in August of 1982 -- mainly because Jeff Cooper had stepped down and the new guy Jean-Paul Denis was already proposing ideas that both Chuck Taylor (one gunwriter I never met, although I came within a mile) and myself really couldn't get behind. The gamesmen had won. During '83 and '84 I was running a lot of NRA Action-type courses on the old Brandon range like the Falling Plate event and some PPC stuff and Bowling Pin, we liked Bowling Pin.

Canada was different then, and there was this RCMP Officer PPC Champion living there who used to practice with me a lot. There was still access to the inadequately ventilated underground range in the Brandon RCMP Detachment Station which allowed a full 25 yards indoor for the "reduced target course" so we spent a couple of years regularly shooting together. He used his highly modified (Model 10, I believe) PPC gun and I used my fairly stock S&W Model 586 that I had ordered "just playing with it" at the Bianchi Cup in 1981. I never believed they'd actually ship it to Canada and I'd be able to get it -- but they did. Canada was different then.

My friend was a great shot, and I only beat him maybe 25% of the time at first but after enough time doing it I started winning perhaps 2 out of 5. We shot for the cheap McDonald's Cheeseburgers, that's what the winner got although we usually just ran a tab system. He was using wadcutters and I was using my own reloads which at the time would have been a Lyman Keith 150 grain SWC and 4.5 grains of Unique.

It was a great way to learn to shoot great double-action and precise single-action groups. And of course, we'd talk to each other about a myriad of things. I remember once driving home and seeing two RCMP cars parked in front of my house. "Oh, great," I thought. I have spent my whole life immersed to the nose in fun, exciting and non-chemical or drug related things I was told I was not supposed to be immersed in, so as I was walking into the house I was trying to think of "what could they possibly have me on?" Walking in, I saw my PPC buddy and another Officer on the couch, my Mom serving them tea and cupcakes and my Dad regaling them with one of his "there they were, they had an MG-34 with a limitless belt and I only had my Bren gun and the mags in my pouches, and the guys in my carrier were on the ground trying to bring in our wounded buddy and I was thump, thump, thump, pause, thump, thump, thump trying to keep those German heads down...." . Dad's hands subconsciously immitating the act of firing, a poo-eating grin on his face with his audience -- as usual -- thoroughly mesmerized.

And I remembered that I'd told my PPC friend that Dad had been at Normandy with the RWR from day one until the day it all ended on May 8/45, with the RWR in Essen, Germany. I guess that rated a visit to talk to Dad, who always loved the limelight of people honoring his service.

"Hey, guys! I'll leave you to it...." I said as I walked by. Somewhat relieved they weren't there to see me. Canada was different then.

My Dad (died 1994, he was 27 at Normandy) with a Tommy Gun. Warren Oates depiction of John Dillinger is sometimes so spot-on for Dad. Not when he was acting crazy, but when Dillinger in that movie was just talking to people with his sly smile -- that's just spot-on. But he was a caring and loving family man. Cheers to you, Dad! You can see that Tommy Gun at the Evergreen Museum in Belmont, Manitoba. Well worth the trip. I last shot it (full-auto) in 2003 or 2004 when I was back visiting that area.

 

[calmex]

I'm counting on this haha


Here's a question. From an economic point of view, why do these companies even bother making both .38spl and .357 pistols? They are so similar I don't even understand the value of .38spl. is it just so they can make light weight aluminum 38s or something? Is 38spl more accurate when fired from a slightly shorter 38spl chamber?

I'm shocked that I'm suddenly so interested in wheel guns... They had never really appealed to me before.

S&W and a few other companies do make "pocket sized" or at least "almost pocket sized" (a Model 19 or 66 2.5-inch is not pocket sized) snubbies in .357 Magnum. I have to ask: "Have you ever fired one?" I don't mean a K-frame 2.5-incher, I mean a J-frame lightweight? Our Club in Queretero had one of the very, very first S&W .38 Special Bodyguard with Laser revolvers only weeks after they came out. In fact, we got two. (Yes, I know, Border Controls only work for those interested in following them). They weight 14.4 ounces, and one of the guys gathered around the bench at the range joked that "Erika could wear them as ear-rings". Well, the barrel says +P so my partner in crime Michael says to me "Why don't you take the first shot?" and hands me a 5-shot H.K.S. speedloader of 162 grain Lee LSWC bullets over 4.2 grains of Bullseye. Not a +P+ load, but certainly +P. I elected to try to double-action (those guns have great actions) 5-shots onto a target about five yards away. I gave up after the second shot. Screw that. My little girly-hand hurt for days. Screw that.

The .38 Special came out in the late 1800's and was a larger version of the .38 Long Colt -- which had the .375 bore of the Navy cap-and-balls because those were some of the revolvers they started with using bored-through cylinders. After the Ruskies insisted on the S&W Model 3's being issued in .44 Russian which was basically a .44 American (with a .452 bore diameter) but with a bullet lubed and sized to inside case diameter which reduced bore diameter to .429 and everyone found out how great inside-the-case-lubed-bullets worked they did the same with the .38's and out comes the .38 Special with a .357/.358 bore diameter instead of .375 - .380. That's why modern .44's are actually .43's and modern .38's are actually .36's. (I agree with Mike Venturino -- another gunwriter I've never met but love to read -- that .41 Colt should have been the casing used for the .38 Special as it would have given us a real .38 Caliber round (.375 plus or minus internal case diameter).

There are millions of guns in the World in this caliber. For use in the .38 Special snubnose revolvers, it is the least powerful caliber you can (at least sort of) rely on for self-defense while at the same time it is practically the most powerful caliber that the average shooter can actually fire off with any hope of accuracy or control out of those small and often lightweight revovlers. It's still the "best thing out there" for the Mexican market where you are carrying concealed without permission -- except from God himself, of course, who is not as stupid as the politicians.

.380 ACP automatics are considerably weaker in terms of stopping power, and the guns tend to jam a lot. Some, like the newer Sig P-230 work quite well, and I've seen smoothed-out and polished PPK's and PP's that work pretty good -- but they can still jam. Weaker impact and a possible jammer versus almost powerful enough to to do the job and probably it's going to fire? Revolver wins. And don't kid yourself: I had a PPK/s in Canada in the 1990's and my driver in San Miguel has one as well. I love to shoot it. But it's got it's downsides. It can jam. And when it jams, it's hard to clear quickly. It's got downsides. I'm sorry, 007, but we can do better these days. Although, I will admit, they can be silenced very well. I would not let somebody I loved carry one as their first line of defense if something else was available. Is a .380 PPK better than nothing? Well, obviously. And a silenced one would be excellent for quietly dispatching irritants without waking the neighborhood. But still, back it up with something. Oh, and a powerful, hot loading in a PPK hurts about as much to fire as a steel S&W Snubby with +P ammo. Hmmmmm.

Some snubby's I grabbed from the sea-chest. George's Model 60 no dash. My wife also has a Model 60 no dash. The hardest revolvers ever made. I do not like the Pachmyar wrap-around grips although they are certainly comfortable to shoot hot loads with. But they tend to bugger pocket-carry. I do not think a S&W Snubby with these grips will fit into the "snubby box" we use to determine whether your gun is a "Snubby" or a "Super-Snubby" for our competitions. A Colt DS old model with stock grips barely fits. My wife uses the same basic grips but her's are the Crimson Trace Laser Models in the bigger size. She cannot take the recoil of the +P loads without them, and anyway she carries in a Purse Holster from Ray's Holsters in the U.S. (I also don't approve of not carrying "on your person" but I am not always listened to, you know.) Next is my Model 49 eagerly awaiting some new Falconia J-frame grips from Altamont. It's my hideout gun and I think my favorite of what's out there. Below that is a former Texas Highway issue gun from the 1980's meant to be worn as a backup in issue pants with a built-in pocket holster. Nickle plated, a S&W Model 37 with aluminum frame and not +P rated. Certainly better than nothing but it would be a beast to fire without better grips even using standard .38 Special. This gun looks like it was carried little and shot less. A true gem. And finally, the PPK/S. Immensely fun to play with, and certainly better than nothing in a pinch but I would personally consider it as a backup to my backup. But that's me.

Club guy Alberto shooting the PPK/s at the San Miguel range. Enormously fun to play with -- but when she jams, she jams. I'm sure some polishing and precisely loaded ammo would help relieve the problem. Aguila factory .380 has a very sharp edge where case meets bullet. I think running them through a slight taper-crimp die would eliminate a lot of the jamming. We did that with the Sig 230 and it worked very well -- but it could still jam. Those little guns have a snappy recoil that people who have never fired one discount and limp-wristing will jam them PDQ.

 

[redryder]

Really enjoying these insights and expertise you are offering up Calmex. Keep it up please. The Canadian Tire thing makes me curious. Not that there is a damn thing wrong with working at CTC.

 

[old303]

After your text, the photo of you and your daughter had me tracking over a bit to that tent-pole base. "SIX ROUNDS KNEELING, RIGHT HAND, RIGHT SIDE OF THE BARRICADE" from the Service Match prompts came readily to mind. If I had to reload I'd be coming back out on the left, maybe prone to vary the vertical position too.

But then I don't wear white trousers and don't have to think about grass stains on my knees.

I miss all the "finger" tests, but do usually manage 530/600 or so with light loads. Planning to load some up warmer now, and see how that works.

 

[calmex]

After your text, the photo of you and your daughter had me tracking over a bit to that tent-pole base. "SIX ROUNDS KNEELING, RIGHT HAND, RIGHT SIDE OF THE BARRICADE" from the Service Match prompts came readily to mind. If I had to reload I'd be coming back out on the left, maybe prone to vary the vertical position too.

But then I don't wear white trousers and don't have to think about grass stains on my knees.

I miss all the "finger" tests, but do usually manage 530/600 or so with light loads. Planning to load some up warmer now, and see how that works.

That's the spirit!

 

[dan belisle]

Chuck Taylor did a series of courses here in the 80's, I hung around as a "gopher", but couldnt afford the course at the time. Everyone had 1911's, except one hipower and my buddy Guy with his snubbie S&W 44 Special. I learned a lot just watching. Met Venturino when I was working in Livingstone MT, hmm, late 90's I think. Very jnteresting guy. Very, very sorry I didnt make more effort to get to Cooper and Keith when theynwere still alive. Ah well, age and wisdom, I guess. - dan