SKS confession

Declan said:
Mine is an SKS-D thus it's Chinese. I am getting three inch groups or less with iron sights, from a 100 yards, sitted, with elbows on the table. I don't get fliers either.

The groups are very consistent as I always use the same ammo; Norinco, silver box. The only work I did to it was to put an ATI Draganov stock on it and fine tune the fit. I would choose this gun as my MBR over any of the AR's I used to own.

Of course, it's a matter of preference and I am not knocking AR's. Shoot what you like and don't make other people feel bad for not using "brand name" guns. Only snobs cut down "the quality" of other people's kit.
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Here goes nothing. I call BULL####!!!! Your front sight post is larger than a standard piece of copy paper at that distance. How can you the shooter consistantly hold your rifle in the same place so as to produce 3" groups? Your rifle is chinese, the absolute worst copy of the SKS ever produced. The SKS is not a competition platform, never was, never will be. Norinco ammo doesn't have the greatest QC either. Hell the 7.62X39 is not known for its inherant accuracy. The cartridge performs best inside 200 yards. With all these factors involved you can honestly tell me(and the other CGN users) that your gun will shoot 3MOA consistantly? Even if you only shoot at 100 yards I still don't buy it. I can guarantee there isn't a single SKS in this country could hold that kind of accuracy out to say 300 yards let alone further. As I posted in a previous thread, I have nothing against the SKS. Great gun for banging away. functional, reliable(usually) and cheap to feed in comparison. Just don't start making ridiculous claims of its accuracy or that your gun doesn't produce "flyers". Semi auto actions have looser tolerances than bolt actions which is what contributes to their proportionaly inconsistant groupings when compared to bolt guns. (We all know the SKS is well known for its fit and finish.) So don't try and tell me that 3MOA is possible out of your "stock" SKS. Especially when you cannot even offer pictorial evidence of such results.

CF
 
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I've shot 2 SKS carbines... Neither impressed me, even when I was offered the opportunity to buy one of them for the cost of 2 bandoliers of .303 BRIT ammo.

Being open-minded, I would like to try one of the Yugo 59/66 variety, as it SHOULD be the best of the breed.

If it's a flunk, too, then I'll just keep putting rounds through my Enfields... At least they hit what I aim for, and the round will stop anything on 2 or 4 legs in North America.

And, I'll still be able to engage zombies from 500 yards!

:)

YMMV.

Neal
 
panzerslob2 said:
There (all) garbage!!! Your not shooting your daddy's .22 anymore, ya the ammo is cheap and the rifles cheap aswell, I would step up to the plate and get something that's worth the money. Colt A-15, M1 or the nation match M-14, if you can't afford to shoot your rilfe then it's time sell it and buy air rilfe.
Out!
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Talk to contractors that have come back from the sand box. I have three friends that have all been there in the last two years. All saw action and all dumped their company issued AR's for AKs within the first weeks.
I guess it depends what you want your rifles for. For me its self defense, My sks-d will hit a man sized target at 50yards or less every time with iron sights. Your Match M-14 will not serve you well unless your giving it a constant drink of lube, ill trust my life with the sks any day......

Why is it i can buy an AR but not an AK ?
 
nelly said:
Being open-minded, I would like to try one of the Yugo 59/66 variety, as it SHOULD be the best of the breed.


Neal
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The yugo barrels are not chromed. If you shoot the cheap chinese ammo make sure you clean every time you shoot.
 
HUSS said:
Talk to contractors that have come back from the sand box. I have three friends that have all been there in the last two years. All saw action and all dumped their company issued AR's for AKs within the first weeks.
I guess it depends what you want your rifles for. For me its self defense, My sks-d will hit a man sized target at 50yards or less every time with iron sights. Your Match M-14 will not serve you well unless your giving it a constant drink of lube, ill trust my life with the sks any day......

Why is it i can buy an AR but not an AK ?
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Why bother to talk to contractors? The VERY best they can represent is members of the "has been" squad. While it is arguably somewhat better than the wannabe squad, it is not exactly the sharp edge....

Worse, your story is a half ass example because it lacks first hand factual detail. Just because your buddies were there doesnt mean you were. They might just be choosing local mfg weapons because they have a poor supply chain to get quality stuff.


As for the M14 not serving well, what are you on? The very best units who ARE on the sharp edge are choosing the M14 despite being able to otherwise get whatever the hell they want. I'd say that's a rather telling statement. What was old is new again.


Further, the AK was built for retards who can neither maintain nor aim their weapons.

Reference Cannonfodder above. He nailed it quite nicely.
 
sprint said:
Why bother to talk to contractors? The VERY best they can represent is members of the "has been" squad. While it is arguably somewhat better than the wannabe squad, it is not exactly the sharp edge....



As for the M14 not serving well, what are you on? The very best units who ARE on the sharp edge are choosing the M14 despite being able to otherwise get whatever the hell they want. I'd say that's a rather telling statement. What was old is new again.


Further, the AK was built for retards who can neither maintain nor aim their weapons.

Reference Cannonfodder above. He nailed it quite nicely.
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A match grade m-14 is machined to tolerances so tight that they have to be constantly lubed. Most guys who shoot competetivly take two because one will break down most of the time.

The Ak's made by http://www.globaltrades.com/ will out shoot and out last any AR.

As for contractors, i would hardly call them has beens. Blackwater is in the process of building a battalion sized unit that can be subed out. Not to mention most contractors are making 5k a week.

As for me, other then training when i can i have no real world experience but will take the word of a man who has fought on every continent of the world.


as for this comment, i would hardly call the russian special forces retards.
"Further, the AK was built for retards who can neither maintain nor aim their weapons."
 
cannonfodder said:
Here goes nothing. I call BULLs**t!!!! Your front sight post is larger than a standard piece of copy paper at that distance. How can you the shooter consistantly hold your rifle in the same place so as to produce 3" groups? Your rifle is chinese, the absolute worst copy of the SKS ever produced. The SKS is not a competition platform, never was, never will be. Norinco ammo doesn't have the greatest QC either. Hell the 7.62X39 is not known for its inherant accuracy. The cartridge performs best inside 200 yards. With all these factors involved you can honestly tell me(and the other CGN users) that your gun will shoot 3MOA consistantly? Even if you only shoot at 100 yards I still don't buy it. I can guarantee there isn't a single SKS in this country could hold that kind of accuracy out to say 300 yards let alone further. As I posted in a previous thread, I have nothing against the SKS. Great gun for banging away. functional, reliable(usually) and cheap to feed in comparison. Just don't start making ridiculous claims of its accuracy or that your gun doesn't produce "flyers". Semi auto actions have looser tolerances than bolt actions which is what contributes to their proportionaly inconsistant groupings when compared to bolt guns. (We all know the SKS is well known for its fit and finish.) So don't try and tell me that 3MOA is possible out of your "stock" SKS. Especially when you cannot even offer pictorial evidence of such results.

CF
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I do a lot of long range and precision shooting, and I say this is entirely feasable. 3" is huge. I shoot 2" with my Yugo SKS, Norc silver box, and standard sights. Norc ammo is actually VERY consistent, gets your facts straight, check with any of the guys who've used their .308 stuff too, on par with the American brands of 'ball', sometimes better.

The 7.62X39 is also an inherently accurate round (and the base of the cartridge that dominated benchrest for years, the 6mm PPC), it simply suffers from cheap guns and mass produced ammo, but mostly poor shooters.

3" is actually something I hear echoed from MANY SKS shooters, the fact this throws you for a loop tells me there's a lack of experience on your end. 3" is not even anything to brag about, let alone call BS on... :rolleyes:
 
cannonfodder said:
Here goes nothing. I call BULLs**t!!!! Your front sight post is larger than a standard piece of copy paper at that distance. How can you the shooter consistantly hold your rifle in the same place so as to produce 3" groups? Your rifle is chinese, the absolute worst copy of the SKS ever produced. The SKS is not a competition platform, never was, never will be. Norinco ammo doesn't have the greatest QC either. Hell the 7.62X39 is not known for its inherant accuracy. The cartridge performs best inside 200 yards. With all these factors involved you can honestly tell me(and the other CGN users) that your gun will shoot 3MOA consistantly? Even if you only shoot at 100 yards I still don't buy it. I can guarantee there isn't a single SKS in this country could hold that kind of accuracy out to say 300 yards let alone further. As I posted in a previous thread, I have nothing against the SKS. Great gun for banging away. functional, reliable(usually) and cheap to feed in comparison. Just don't start making ridiculous claims of its accuracy or that your gun doesn't produce "flyers". Semi auto actions have looser tolerances than bolt actions which is what contributes to their proportionaly inconsistant groupings when compared to bolt guns. (We all know the SKS is well known for its fit and finish.) So don't try and tell me that 3MOA is possible out of your "stock" SKS. Especially when you cannot even offer pictorial evidence of such results.

CF
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I got nothing to prove to you man, or to anyone else so I'll bow out leaving you to believe whatever you like. As for "pictorial evidence", how hard do you think would be for anyone to take a pen and stab out some "pictorial evidence"?
 
Ardent said:
And HUSS, I'd be surprised to see contractors dumping AR's for SKS's, even as a fan... Sounds uber iffy to me buddy.

And, Norinco ammo is non corrosive, it's primarily the eastern bloc stuff that eats barrels...
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They were switching to AK's not sks's. There are alot of good western made ak's now that still run after being buried in mud. They are the glocks of the rifle world.
 
Ardent said:
And, Norinco ammo is non corrosive, it's primarily the eastern bloc stuff that eats barrels...
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I was told that most surplus stuff is corrosive............ atleast my guns are all clean.
 
HUSS said:
As for contractors, i would hardly call them has beens. Blackwater is in the process of building a battalion sized unit that can be subed out. Not to mention most contractors are making 5k a week.

As for me, other then training when i can i have no real world experience but will take the word of a man who has fought on every continent of the world.
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Like you say, you have no real world experience.

If you were a has been yourself, you would understand that people in really great units are galled by the idea of being anywhere else.

While its true that Blackwater employs a mix of people, some having fantastic unit history, what exactly do you think they talk about when they get around the campfire, how great it is to be out of the SEALS or SAS and in at Blackwater working with people who NEVER would have passed selection or commando indoc?

please...


***EDIT

But dont take my has-been word for it. From MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6981680/

"[Quality varies] greatly from highly professional contractors to flat-out dangerous guys," says Col. Thomas Hammes, a Marine instructor at the National Defense University in Washington.
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I'll give you a shiney nickel if you can guess how former elite guys feel about working with a group interespersed with high-paid retards, or baby-sitting truck convoys. Better than sitting at home BSing, but a DAMN site worse than being with their former unit doing bright shiney things.
 
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sprint said:
Like you say, you have no real world experience.

If you were a has been yourself, you would understand that people in really great units are galled by the idea of being anywhere else.

While its true that Blackwater employs a mix of people, some having fantastic unit history, what exactly do you think they talk about when they get around the campfire, how great it is to be out of the SEALS or SAS and in at Blackwater working with people who NEVER would have passed selection or commando indoc?

please...
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I agree, but things are changing. The quality of contractors will continue to improve. Why would the u.s not use them ? they are far cheaper to keep out in the field. The world is changing, from what i have read and heard moving out of the army and working privately is similar to the average guy working his wayup the corporate ladder. I mean why wouldnt you want to make 5k a week ?
 
HUSS said:
I agree, but things are changing. The quality of contractors will continue to improve. Why would the u.s not use them ? they are far cheaper to keep out in the field. The world is changing, from what i have read and heard moving out of the army and working privately is similar to the average guy working his wayup the corporate ladder. I mean why wouldnt you want to make 5k a week ?
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You are quite right about the financial aspect being a BIG draw.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/may2004/pmcs-m03.shtml

In point of fact, the SASR has set a precedent in experienced troopers transitioning from SF to private sector for the money. They have a truly marketable skill, and want to get paid.

Having said that, the problem is that their skills will quite likely atrophy. It is a "make hay while the sun shines" ploy, and a dangerous departure from that which made them lucrative in the first place.



These fellows may now find themselves riding shotgun on cab rides from the airport to a hotel with billy-bob, the former highway patrolman. Don't you think that will drive them insane?


Not trying to be an ass at all, just suggesting that the SASR troopers will not exactly view the people they are working with as peers.

Also suggesting that just because someone has experience, does not mean that it is in keeping with the best practices.
 
x2 here....


PMing with Huss. Great guy.

No offence intended if anything comes off as sour. Just my personal opinion at the end of the day.
 
cannonfodder said:
Your rifle is chinese, the absolute worst copy of the SKS ever produced. CF
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Not necessarily so...
Source: www.simonov.net/ubervalues.htm

cannonfodder said:
The SKS is not a competition platform, never was, never will be. Norinco ammo doesn't have the greatest QC either. CF
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News flash! The idea of using competition rifles in warfare pretty much died with the Ross rifle in WW1...for the same reasons mentioned above regarding the unreliability of the ARs when they get a tad dirty. Besides you are mixing Apples with Oranges. :rolleyes:

cannonfodder said:
Hell the 7.62X39 is not known for its inherant accuracy. The cartridge performs best inside 200 yards. CF
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7.62X39 Surplus ammo does what it was meant to do...ie hit the center of mass of a man sized target at 200 yards. Besides if I wanted to compete with an AR I'd drag out my 1940's M38 Husqvarna in 6.5X55 and show you some real long distance surgery on the target. :D

Of interesting note:
6) EXPECTATIONS: Perhaps lowering ones expectations is the most cost and time effective approach to accurizing an SKS. Are you trying to build a sniper rifle? If so, sell the SKS. Sniper rifles are accurate for hundreds of yards and 7.62 x 39 just doesn't have to propellant to push a round over 350 yards. At 250 yards, one has to question the lethality of the round. If your intention is to shoot at 100 yards, maybe getting ambitious at 200, then perhaps a little refinement is worthwhile. A SKS can expect less than 4 inch groups of 4-5 shots at 100 yards. Two to three inch groups should be a decent goal, everything else is gravy. I've seen many a 1-2 inch 100 yard group from a SKS's that have never been modified in any way.
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Source: www.simonov.net/uberaccur.htm
 
Ardent said:
Norinco ammo, the silver box we use here, is not surplus, it is commercial production, even labelled in English... ;)
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Where would one go to find that here in ontario?
 
I understand that any shooter can poke holes in paper as "evidence" of their accuracy claims. However none of the current SKS shooters who brag about their excellent groupings has yet to post a single picture, fabricated or not. I believe Sparrow even offered to go shoot with another CGN member who preached similar claims of accuracy. As far as I know Sparrow is still waiting for that range date.

Besides someones opinion on another forum regarding the quality of the chinese SKS. What has quality been like for the guns we see?? I believe they have issues with the barrels moving no? How about inconsistent and heavy triggers. Every SKS I've ever fired had a poor trigger and no two were similar. Lets not forget the loose top cover and the difficult mags on the D variants.

I never implied that competition grade firearms were the order of the day. My point was in reference to SKS rifles not being CAPABLE of ever being a comeptition platform due to the fact it was never designed to be one. By that I mean: poor fit(loose tolerances, not always a bad thing) poor finish, and poor materials. The AR platform was never designed to compete either. The AR platform CAN be altered/modified to achieve reasonable levels of accuracy for competition.

The 7.62x39 is used as the BASIS for the 6mm catridge. The two are very different. Either way, what difference does that make?

At the end of the day the SKS is a simple rifle designed for peasants and does its job well. Comparing the SKS to say the AR platform is really like apples to oranges. One does the job, and one does the job very well.

CF
 
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