I know a guy overseas that is working on selling a improved AR with a self cleaning gas system and in 6.8mm. I come from a 7.62 NATO background and always considered the 5.56 a less than satisfactory round. It does have better wounding characteristic than 7.62, but fails to provide a good thump at range, damage against vehicles and penetrate cover. In my opinion they focused on one element of the bullet and sacrificed the others to get it. I am hoping a caliber like 6.8 will give our guys a happier medium. The plus side is that the conversion only requires new uppers and minimal training costs, compared to a new weapon platform.
SKS confession
- Thread starter Jeremy
- Start date
There was some BS called on a claim of 3moa for a yugo SKS and seems to be alot of slamming (no pun) the potential accuracy of the SKS platform. I wont comment on the worst of the norincos but I can comment on yugos, and the nicer chinese 56s. There is nothing inheriently inaccurate or unprecise about the SKS! My yugo with gas flowing will put 20 bullets under a 2 hand spread at 200yds from a -20 degree barrel to a smoking hot barrel.
I do not doubt that there are some real SKS dogs out there I know that there are. But I bet the worst of them manage to get sold to at least a few people in quick succession thereby contributing to the poor reputation. Ever heard of someone rushing to sell a 200 dollar tack driver?? I sold an as new norinco piece of crap with out firing it for 50 bucks once but I would'nt sell my accurate yugo for 500.
I do not doubt that there are some real SKS dogs out there I know that there are. But I bet the worst of them manage to get sold to at least a few people in quick succession thereby contributing to the poor reputation. Ever heard of someone rushing to sell a 200 dollar tack driver?? I sold an as new norinco piece of crap with out firing it for 50 bucks once but I would'nt sell my accurate yugo for 500.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
HUSS said:
.223 is just fine inside 800 yards, and actually performs better than .308 on steel targets at almost any range. In fact, I do not believe .308 is a ton more effective in the same role as .223, even the effective ranges are similar.
Ardent said:
Long post, so bear with me...
Serving and ex-serving members will recall a battle-school lecture that was called crack-thump-penetration demonstration.
In addition to teaching range estimation by evaluating time delay between sonic crack and ignition thump, it demonstrated the effects of 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and 50 cal on various protective materials.
Typical materials are:
loose dirt
sandbagged dirt
reveted trench berm
breeze block
IIRC (its been a LOOONG time) the 5.56mm had certain advantages in some materials. I recall better penetration of Sandbag material. I believe the 7.62mm round was stopped cold by a few layers or reinforced sandbags, while the buzz-saw effect of the 5.56mm round chewed the bags to peices.
The disadvantage showed most substantially on breeze block material however.
Whereas the 5.56mm round would chew through the cinder block with a "buzz-saw" kind of effect, requiring multiple rounds (generally 3 rounds in a burst from a C9), the 7.62mm round would smash the brick on a single round impact, often resulting in a far side penetration.
Doctrinally speaking, the 5.56mm round fired from a C7 by an individual rifleman is listed as effective to 300m for the individual, and 600m in section level fire. The 7.62mm round fired from a C1 by an individual rifleman was listed as effective to 600m. (anyone here remember level 6 - shoot to live?)
Be nice to get to a range that allows similar anti-material tests. Those of you who have recently done this (more recently than 14 years) may care to verify/correct.
The 7.62mm round has some other nice characterisitcs that machine-gunners examine from the acronym BRAT-VP
Beaten Zone
-Relative to the cone of shot, the 2 dimensional cross section that a grouping of rounds follow in their path to the target, whereby 80% of shots fired fall inside the center of the cone.
As rounds travel to target, they statistically experience spacial diversity from the center impact point. Higher rounds fall further than lower rounds, resulting in predictable "beaten zones" that are roughly cigar shaped on flat terrain, circular on rising terrain, and elongated on falling terrain. Beaten zones are sited in enfilade to produce defilading fire to produce greater % of hits on fewer rounds. the 7.62mm round is capable of producing accurate fire out to 1100m from the bipod and 1800m off the support kit.
Range
-Bears a direct relation to Penetration. The weight of the project * the velocity(squared) = energy. This directly correlates to range.
All things being equall, a heavier projectile is less affected by elements such as wind at greater distances. At extreme distances, such as Chey-tac's impressive cartridge, elements such as corealis effect need to be taken into account, as the target does not seem to be moving, but the Earth is.
Accuracy
-Bears directly on width of cone of shot, and ability to hit center of mass on a point target at great distance.
You all know the factors that affect accuracy. A 1 moa weapon capable of grouping 1 inch at 100m is capable of grouping 80% of shots (Cone of shot) within a variance of 7 inches at 700m, wind effects excepted. Therefore, a heavier supersonic round is typically superior to a lighter one, provided the round has not bled off its critical supersonic velocity.
Trajectory
-Affected by resistance and barometric pressure.
The 7.62mm round has a "flat" trajectory out to 700m, with no more than 1.8m rise above POA at the apogee (IIRC, approx 500m out from target. Ideal for producing first catch and first graze effects out to 700m in non-sniping application.
Volume of Fire
-Not relative to this discussion, but bears on denial of space inside the cone of shot.
Penetration
-Bears a direct correlation to Range/speed/projectile weight.
Generally speaking, a larger heavier round travelling at the same speed downrange will produce greater penetration than the lighter projectile. This is a very important design characteristic of the Chey-tac round, which maintains supersonic velocity at ranges far exceeding that of the 50 cal.
My biggest point is that no one round is universally superior to another. they all have applications where one round is better suited than another. As others have suggested, it depends on your end application.
Additional sources:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m16.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1986/MVT.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/M118long.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56_mm_NATO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_mm_NATO
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- Location
- Alberta land of many guns
Sprint,
I am aware of the characteristics of the 5.56. That's why I personally feel it is a more than capable round for its intended purposes. Your statement regarding the resistence of 556 FMJ to fragment is not true. Mil Spec M193 and M855 FMJ ball ammo, at 55gr and 62gr respectively will most definitely fragment. See the link.
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#m193orm855
In reference to the barrier penetration, some points need clarification. 5.56 will not penetrate even a single standard cinder block without complete destruction of the projectile. 308/7.62x51 will indeed penetrate 2 cinder blocks while remaining almost completely intact. 5.56 is not the best choice for barrier type work even with AP ammo. The nature of the round as you pointed out is its ability to fragment upon impact with dense mediums, which unfortunately does not facilitate barrier penetration. As for sandbags, the link below demonstrates that all current infantry calibres will not penetrate even one sand bag.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7.htm
Ardent7,
Bludgfhdga, gjie eggirre..... What were you saying about formulating a response without jibberish?
I appreciate the comments folks. Its nice to have a debate, sometimes a heated one without regressing to name calling. Even though Ardent7 is a granola eatin tree hugger from BC I won't hold that against him... I as well am tired of this thread, time for a new argument.
CF
I am aware of the characteristics of the 5.56. That's why I personally feel it is a more than capable round for its intended purposes. Your statement regarding the resistence of 556 FMJ to fragment is not true. Mil Spec M193 and M855 FMJ ball ammo, at 55gr and 62gr respectively will most definitely fragment. See the link.
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#m193orm855
In reference to the barrier penetration, some points need clarification. 5.56 will not penetrate even a single standard cinder block without complete destruction of the projectile. 308/7.62x51 will indeed penetrate 2 cinder blocks while remaining almost completely intact. 5.56 is not the best choice for barrier type work even with AP ammo. The nature of the round as you pointed out is its ability to fragment upon impact with dense mediums, which unfortunately does not facilitate barrier penetration. As for sandbags, the link below demonstrates that all current infantry calibres will not penetrate even one sand bag.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7.htm
Ardent7,
Bludgfhdga, gjie eggirre..... What were you saying about formulating a response without jibberish?
I appreciate the comments folks. Its nice to have a debate, sometimes a heated one without regressing to name calling. Even though Ardent7 is a granola eatin tree hugger from BC I won't hold that against him... I as well am tired of this thread, time for a new argument.CF
Man this stupid thread has gotten out of control. I made it as a joke that I hadn't followed the crowd and bought an sks. Now it's come down to this? A bunch of so called grown men whining about calibers and qualities of rifles. Can't you guys just agree to disagree? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, just accept it!!
D Dead on!!! Thats what gunnutz is all about. No one can agree!
Jeremy said:I must confess to all here on CGN... I don't own an SKS. I see them listed on everyone's must have lists and zombie defense lists. Yet for some reason, I have never given in to the hype about them and bought one. Now I am prepared to face the rath of those that say I'm deprived and need one
I've never owned one. I can't shoot it at my local club, but probably could up north... but it just dosen't grab me.
HUSS said:
And that's why the gods gave us the gift of the 12 gauge rifled slug gun...I digress.
Here is a rather long but interesting article as to what the experts are saying regarding the two 'Nato' Calibers:
Source (one of many):
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1986/MVT.htm
Frozen Snake
Regular
- Location
- 49°29'28" N 119°35'19" W
Wow hot topic or what. First off I have owned bothe the sks d and std sks. If you own the D model you will have to practice loading the mags. I found the 30/5 rounder Sticks while the 5 rounder loads faster. The bolt not holding open after the last shot sucks. I wish the Std Sks with the clips would be made to hold the normal ten shots. that would be so much better and even faster. Accuracy?? Well at 100 yards its ugly on paper but then again Mine moves around in the ati stock. BUT! I can hit a rock the size of a human head at 100 yards free standing with a red dot scope. Not all the time but pretty close. "inches" So I would not want to be the one standing there. Point is the rifle is cheap. I spend more getting food for the week then what I paid for it. Its no AR! But its none restricted cheap reliable and fun to shoot. I am sure somebody already pointed all of this out. Anyways safe shooting to all.
- Location
- Surrey, BC
*cracks a beer*
Thread's closed, people. Move along, nothing to see here!
Thread's closed, people. Move along, nothing to see here!
I know everyone's sick of this discussion, but this pretty much sums up the whole $$$ end of the argument/comparison/lunacy. Couldn't have said it better myself. This is my last post in this goddam'd thread, no more!Frozen Snake said:
I went through this thread hoping to learn a little more of the SKS before I get one myself. Can't say I did unfortunately.
I am going to get one because I own no semi automatics. If the powers that be decide some day to strike down the law against semis, it is in everyone's best interests that there are as many in individual ownership as possible. Makes the electorate more vigourous when "they" decide to take something away.
So, like them or not, if you want to keep your AR you had better hope there are as many raggetty-assed SKSs in as many homes as possible, as it will give the government more to do before the come knocking on your door.
I am going to get one because I own no semi automatics. If the powers that be decide some day to strike down the law against semis, it is in everyone's best interests that there are as many in individual ownership as possible. Makes the electorate more vigourous when "they" decide to take something away.
So, like them or not, if you want to keep your AR you had better hope there are as many raggetty-assed SKSs in as many homes as possible, as it will give the government more to do before the come knocking on your door.
Christ that took a a half pack of smokes to get HERE. How can you say you didn't learn anything? I think the best point is that they are cheap and as a result people do like to bubba them and make the SKS look like an AK. Being cheap has also resulted in a lot of first time rfle buyers first choice.The idea to buy a cheap semi started my collection, and I have to say that I thought it would shoot properly out of the box with a good cleaning. Only after a little tweaking with the front sight was I able to hit something. So I'd hazard a guess that a lot of sights haven't been worked on and the rifle in question has more potential. Not to mention new shooters that haven't got a clue(I'm one)Despite the obvious ignorant contibutions, I think this was a great read! The SKS is like pot leading to heroin. First 7.62 then before you know it, you'll need .50 BM
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