Smokeless Loads for Antiques part 1 - 41 Long colt

Kirk I know the way your loading is a good idea but i gota use up my TB powder frist ;)
Im gona try the 2400 stuff keith used or your 5744 once ive used up all my TB but ive heard from other Shooters they were not impressed with the 5744 in the 44 russian and one guy has two containers of the stuff says its not as accurate as unique.
He swears his unique is better.
I cant argue with your results tho.
One thing you havent really goten into yet is Accuracy! Trail Boss seems very Accurate. i can live with a tad slower bullet if my groups are tight.
less than 2 inches at 25 Yds is what i call good 1.5 is better.
So far the TB has been the most accurate for me compared to Unique.
 
I have noticed that faster powders seem to give better accuracy. Sometimes the improvement is dramatic, such as in my 25-20. I've experimented a bit with different powders in the same rifle and noticed that the faster the powder, the better the accuracy. I believe that this is because as the peak pressure increases, the bullet is increasingly obdurated to fill the throat/bore and seal it, giving better accuracy. For me, it's a choice between lower pressures, or higher pressures and better accuracy. I also like to have a muzzle velocity that is no less than original black powder velocities, so I have to strike a balance between safe pressures, max velocities and accuracy. I feel real good about my 5744 load and believe I have some room to increase it slightly. What will be interesting is to see how a slight increase in velocity affects accuracy. It should improve it due to the slightly higher pressure. I want to shoot more sandbag groups with my 2nd Model American 44 Russian to see how consistent it is at different pressures. That will take some time.
 
Dingus, I shot that 442 RIC pictures of which I posted a while ago, using 3gr of Unique. There was no recoil whatsoever, not even barrel jump. Then I recalculated the loads and realized that the proper one should have been closer to 4gr (it fills the case BTW). Did you ever shoot 442 and what loads did you use?
 
No one is getting this gun, specially now that I have proper mold and tons of lathe turned brass made out of free range picked 303! She shoots to the left and accuracy is not very good, but I have to experiment with the load yet.
 
I Recently bought a 442 RIC but traded it so fast i never got to play with it.
Im thinking another one will pop up one day.
 
While researching the bullet/brass/loads I exchange emails with a fellow down in the States, who owns a rifle in 442. He stated it was a kangaroo rifle made for Oz and was quite popular down there for that purpose.

Sounds like fun to me - kind of a 22 short on steroids. Should be pretty quiet and recoilless.
 
Powder

An old Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets shows with the 45-70 and 405 bullet the following. 25 grains of 2400 gives 1465 and 28 grains of 4759 giving
1450. Both were marked as maximum.
 
H4831 said:
An old Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets shows with the 45-70 and 405 bullet the following. 25 grains of 2400 gives 1465 and 28 grains of 4759 giving
1450. Both were marked as maximum.
Click to expand...

Those are both pretty fast powders for black powder cartridges, but they should give good accuracy with cast bullets. I tried 26 grains of 4759 (I only loaded up 5 rounds) and got a 5-shot group at 100 yards of 2 & 9/16" resting my forearm on a padded block and using the original iron sights on the old '86 Winchester (made in 1904). I was using 405 grain, plain base cast bullets.

As I mentioned a bit earlier in this thread, when using smokeless powder and cast bullets in antique firearms, I find that the faster the powder, the better the accuracy, but the higher the peak pressure. In general, 2400 gives approximately the same peak pressure as black powder, for the same bullet weight and same black powder velocity. For that reason, 2400 should be one of the most accurate powders a fellow can use in original black powder antiques with cast bullets.
 
Just came back from the range. 4gr of Unique in 442 made a big differece. 3gr was waaaay to light. 4gr kicks like a mule, but sends the bullet straight to the bulls eye.

I need to figure out crimping, the baby shakes out one in 6 bullets.
 
OK, here's my little update...

I took a few more BP loads to the range a few weeks ago (we had good weather)

Remember my issues with the flattened primers using IMr 4227, well i got the same problem with a mild 13 grains of BP.

Here's what's happening... Because i dont have a lot of 41LC brass i have been using anealed, fireformed 38spl brass... A common problem with anealing cases is overheating. If you overheat the brass the primer pockets can soften and the primers dont fit tight.

Guess what...my primers arent fitting tight. That's why im getting the same squished primers with BP as with smokeless.

This is just my experience...not to say that anyone should try using smokeless in antique cartridge guns.

Unfortunately, the old 41 colt is now gone. This will be the end of my experimenting with that particular cartrige (until another gun comes along)

The next tests will be on the 44russian and the 44MH cartridges...i think i'll team up with Kirk on this one...
 
Interesting. If a person overheats their brass, it's kinda like using cheese to make cases out of. Your theory does make sense .... I had an awful time believing you were really getting pressures high enough to do that with normal brass. Did the mushing primers do anything to the rear face of the revolver?
 
Win 38-55 said:
I had an awful time believing you were really getting pressures high enough to do that with normal brass. Did the mushing primers do anything to the rear face of the revolver?
Click to expand...

I was really wondering myself...something just didnt make sense until i ran a batch of BP loads through it and got the same results...then i remembered an article i read about anealing and fireforming brass.

As for the primers affecting the rear face...there was nothing. No marks whatsoever.
 
Two things come to mind; first and foremost, when you anneal brass cases, you should be sitting the base in water so that you do not anneal the primer pocket. I sit mine on a 1/2" thick aluminum block sitting in a bread pan of water. The water is about 1/4" or a bit more over the block so that the case head is underwater.
The second thing I am wondering about is the head space on your gun; is it excessive and are the primers coming back first then the shell coming back to meet them. That might cause the primers to flatten more than expected.

cheers mooncoon
 
Anyone try Hodgdon Universal in the .41 Colt? It's right next to Unique on a burn rates chart (next one down/slower).
 
Scowering the internet for smokeless .41 Long Colt loads I have come up with these. Most are from http://bobshellsblog.########.com/2008/07/colt-revolvers.html. I'm not 100% sure whether the bullets he used are hollowbase or heeled. Where it is mentioned they are hollowbase "HB" or heeled "HL". The only heeled bullet load I am positive about was with Universal, which also gave an OAL. I myself would be interested in giving Universal a try as I have alot of it.

4.0gr Unique 192gr 630fps mild
4.2gr Unique 192gr 639fps accurate
4.2gr Unique 197gr 674fps accurate
4.4gr Unique 192gr 643fps ok
4.4gr Unique 197gr 662fps accurate
4.6gr Unique 192gr 730fps near factory
5.0gr Unique 200gr HB --- Max

3.8gr 231 197gr 685fps mild
4.0gr 231 197gr 687fps most accurate
4.2gr 231 197gr 707fps clean
4.4gr 231 197gr 744fps max

3.0gr Bullseye 200gr HB --
3.5gr Bullseye 200gr HB --
3.5gr Bullseye 185gr HB 760fps

4.0gr Red Dot 197gr 814fps accurate

4.2gr Universal 205gr HL 612fps 1.45"oal
 
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