Sporting clays, trap, skeet difficulty

[ripitup911]

Your trying not to miss instead of trying to hit the target. That may sound stupid so ill explain. First time out you most likely went out and just shot hoping to hit each bird.
Now your trying not to miss because your concerned about your score more then the actual bird. This happens to most new shooters. Try not to think about any other shot other then the one your taking. Yes i know its easier said then done.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but my scores are gradually getting worse? First time I scored a 20, then started averaging high teens, now I'm down to mid-teens???

 

[harrygun]

Is figuring out lead just basically trial and error? Using your "feeling"?

 

[Maritime Storm]

Depends on your school of thought. Ed Scherer explained & taught sustained leads, as he saw them in great detail, these articles are available on the NSSA website. Robert Churchill's point of view, which I believe in, it that your entire focus needs to be on the target, the gun should not ever focused in on. If your mount is right, and your focus is entirely on the bird your brain will subconciously figure out the required lead to break the target or drop a bird(his primary focus). Your brain has to have about 1000 of these successful sight pictures before it subconciously do this effectively. Some people pick it up faster. The worse thing you can do while shooting targets is to try and measure the lead by focusing on the bead and the target IMHO. More Reading.

https://www.nssa-nsca.org/index.php/nssa-skeet-shooting/skeet-shooting-review/read-articles-online/

Ed Scherer articles at bottom of page, Station by Station

http://www.doncurrie.com/churchills-axiom
Don's explaination of the Churchill Method

 

[stubblejumper]

Is figuring out lead just basically trial and error? Using your "feeling"?

It is basically your brain associating a sight picture with each shot that breaks the target, until it becomes automatic. The best way to miss, is to try and aim using the beads.

 

[Claybuster]

The worse thing you can do while shooting targets is to try and measure the lead by focusing on the bead and the target IMHO. More Reading.

So true. If you are watching someone else shoot you can sometimes tell if they are bead checking by watching the barrel. Someone focused on the target will swing smoothly and at a consistent speed but the bead checker's barrel will speed up and slow down.

Shotgun leads are based on hand to eye coordination and practice. Lots of practice. Think of it like playing any other sport. Catching a ball, returning a tennis serve or making a long drive down the fairway require keeping the eye on the ball not the glove, racket or club. It's the same with clay shooting. Keep your eye on the target and your subconscious will take care of the rest.

 

[jermyzy]

Your trying not to miss instead of trying to hit the target. That may sound stupid so ill explain. First time out you most likely went out and just shot hoping to hit each bird.
Now your trying not to miss because your concerned about your score more then the actual bird. This happens to most new shooters. Try not to think about any other shot other then the one your taking. Yes i know its easier said then done.

Thanks! Took a month off due to busy schedule. Went to shoot 3 rounds of trap today. 1st round was horrible, scored a 10. Took a break, and realized I was trying to "aim" my shots using the beads/barrel as a reference point. Tried to remember everything from my first lesson. Mount the shotgun, line the beads to the house, eyes half a position over, "PULL", and watch/follow the bird with my eye. Shot a 15 on round 2 and 18 on round 3. I think previously I've been overanalyzing, trying to "aim" my shots like you guys have mentioned. The first time I shot a 21, I was letting everything come naturally, just following the bird with my eye since I didn't know any better! Trying to recapture that feeling and not trying to "aim" is hard!

 

[the spank]

Thanks! Took a month off due to busy schedule. Went to shoot 3 rounds of trap today. 1st round was horrible, scored a 10. Took a break, and realized I was trying to "aim" my shots using the beads/barrel as a reference point. Tried to remember everything from my first lesson. Mount the shotgun, line the beads to the house, eyes half a position over, "PULL", and watch/follow the bird with my eye. Shot a 15 on round 2 and 18 on round 3. I think previously I've been overanalyzing, trying to "aim" my shots like you guys have mentioned. The first time I shot a 21, I was letting everything come naturally, just following the bird with my eye since I didn't know any better! Trying to recapture that feeling and not trying to "aim" is hard!

Remove the bead!

 

[ripitup911]

I shot without a front bead for a long time and honestly not Really sure why they even put them on the guns lol. Usually as a first time your just shooting then you try to get better and can litteraly try to hard. Also keep in mind there are many methods of shooting and different methods work better for different people. I personally use a swing through method. Where as most of the people i shoot with shoot sustained lead.

 

[stubblejumper]

I shot without a front bead for a long time and honestly not Really sure why they even put them on the guns lol. Usually as a first time your just shooting then you try to get better and can litteraly try to hard. Also keep in mind there are many methods of shooting and different methods work better for different people. I personally use a swing through method. Where as most of the people i shoot with shoot sustained lead.

One of the biggest problems that I see , especially with skeet and sporting clays, is that newer shooters follow the target way to long. It is enough of a problem shooting singles, but it becomes even worse when shooting doubles. I have had new shooters ask me why there was no second target, because they were so slow on the first target, that the second target was gone by the time they shot at the first one.

 

[ripitup911]

One of the biggest problems that I see , especially with skeet and sporting clays, is that newer shooters follow the target way to long. It is enough of a problem shooting singles, but it becomes even worse when shooting doubles. I have had new shooters ask me why there was no second target, because they were so slow on the first target, that the second target was gone by the time they shot at the first one.

Ya i have seen that many times aswell at skeet that is usually due to not very good instruction though ive never seen a person shooting with most of the guys at our range go mor then a few stations before getting the hang of hold points and breaking points with proper instruction.

 

[Claybuster]

I shot without a front bead for a long time and honestly not Really sure why they even put them on the guns lol. Usually as a first time your just shooting then you try to get better and can litteraly try to hard. Also keep in mind there are many methods of shooting and different methods work better for different people. I personally use a swing through method. Where as most of the people i shoot with shoot sustained lead.

I still use the front bead to check my mount and then move my visual focus out to where I will pick up the target but I have lost the front bead of my shotgun during a round and not found it to be a serious handicap.

There are a variety of shooting methods including sustained lead, swing through, pull away, collapsing lead, intercept, pre-mounted, gun down and for a sporting clays shooter being familiar with all of them is helpful. Sometimes a presentation prevents you from shooting your preferred method.

One of the biggest problems that I see , especially with skeet and sporting clays, is that newer shooters follow the target way to long. It is enough of a problem shooting singles, but it becomes even worse when shooting doubles. I have had new shooters ask me why there was no second target, because they were so slow on the first target, that the second target was gone by the time they shot at the first one.

Yup. Riding out or "measuring" the targets and then not knowing where to look for the second bird. Hold and insertion points for the second target are just as important as the first.

 

[stubblejumper]

Yup. Riding out or "measuring" the targets and then not knowing where to look for the second bird. Hold and insertion points for the second target are just as important as the first.

And trying to use the beads to aim the shotguns just makes the situation worse. I have helped a few people to improve their scores by removing the silly add on hi viz beads that they had installed on their shotguns. With such a large prominent bead, some people can't help but try and aim the shotgun.

 

[jermyzy]

Well mine is just a plain ivory bead and I find it useful when mounting the shotgun and lining up

 

[harrygun]

Interesting. I seem to be using the pull away lead method. I would line my bead to the clay(Shooting gun up for now) and then pull away for lead and fire. I do stay on the target longer with this method though but it could be that my swing is not smooth so I may adjust lead..

Regarding the front bead though, with all the lead techniques you still have to see the front bead/barrel when you shoot though or you wouldn't know how much lead you're using. As in you can't just point and believe the barrel is somewhere you need to actually see the distance between the clay and bead. So I think thats why you need a front bead unless its good weather and you can see the barrel well enough. If you don't reference the bead distance to the clay you'd never get those sight pictures ingrained in your memory.

I believe now its just trial and error to figure out lead, I was hoping there was a easier and more cost effective way haha! Silly me.

Side note: Pattern your gun! I found that at 21 yards with mod choke I'm shooting roughly 90% high and 10% low, from this I should aim lower on clays as my gun will shoot high. Will test this and see how I score next time I'm at the range.

 

[stubblejumper]

Regarding the front bead though, with all the lead techniques you still have to see the front bead/barrel when you shoot though or you wouldn't know how much lead you're using. As in you can't just point and believe the barrel is somewhere you need to actually see the distance between the clay and bead. So I think thats why you need a front bead unless its good weather and you can see the barrel well enough. If you don't reference the bead distance to the clay you'd never get those sight pictures ingrained in your memory.

No you don't need a bead, I have shot guns that had no bead, and I had no issues because of the missing bead. Two friends that I shoot skeet with, use guns that the bead fell out of, and they never bothered replacing them. Guess what, their scores never suffered because of the missing bead. If you asked me how much lead in feet that I use for a given target, I honestly couldn't tell you. I concentrate on the target, and the barrel is visible, but not in focus, as I am focusing on the target. I swing through the target, and as soon as the target looks correct , I pull the trigger. I do not try to measure the lead or sustain it for any substantial time, and I shoot faster than many people, which makes it easier for me to shoot skeet doubles at stations 3,4,5 than most of the people that I shoot with. I also shoot doubles pretty much every time that I shoot skeet , and I shoot two pairs at station 4, shooting the high house first, and then the low house first. I find that shooting doubles so often keeps me from following the targets too long. It also helps me to shoot more doubles on birds in the field.

 

[beretta boy]

I'm another who believes the bead is superfluous.

Hard focus on the target, even better, the lead edge of the target, not the barrel/bead, will give you better results once you have proper stance, mounting technique, gun fit and balance. Hand/eye coordination then takes over.

IF (and that's a big IF !) the gun "shoots where you look", given ample practice, you will eventually, at best, only subconsciously see your barrel and probably not the bead at all.
When the targets look as big as frisbees (and not like aspirins) you'll have a big advantage at scoring well.

There are times and situations to basically use all the different methods of establish lead or forward allowance. Sustained lead works very well at most Skeet stations, although it's not particularly useful at Station 1H, 7L or 8H&L. With the varying angles of Trap (and some of the subtle angles are very hard to discern) pull ahead or swing through is often easier to apply.
At Sporting Clay / 5-Stand, the varying angles, distances and presentations make sustained lead very hard to apply successfully without a tremendous amount of experience in seeing & "reading" the various types & paths of targets you will see over different terrains and backgrounds (whereas Skeet targets always [or should always !] cross the centre stake at the same height and speed. Likewise in game shooting, sustained lead is very difficult to apply ... waterfowl don't decoy the same way a pheasant may rise, etc.

Far better to learn good stance & mounting technique then modifying your gun to fit so it "shoots where you look" than to try and adjust your hold on target to compensate for a gun that
shoots almost a pattern high... or worse, low. Yes it can be done, but how consistently can you apply it ?

There are some very good books on gun fit & various shooting techniques ... Robert Churchill, Gene Hill, Bob Brister, Chris Batha are all very good among the generalists. For specific sports like Trap, Skeet, Sporting, many of those sports "greats" like Missildine, Braun, Ohye, Hartman, Mayes, Bender, Smith & Digweed have all published books, and/or DVD's or Videos. Sometimes they agree on certain things & methods, sometimes not, but one constant always seems to be gun fit. "She really comes up nice" or " I've got a nice figure 8 and can see perfectly
down the rib " IS NOT necessarily good gun fit ... it can sometimes be far from it !

 

[jermyzy]

Yes, at our lessons, we were told not to look at the barrel after mounting. If done properly, you will be shooting where your eye is (on the bird). I find when I do this, I tend to have higher scores. But inevitably at some point, I try to use the barrel/bead as a "reference point" and my score subsequently suffers. Trying to break this bad habit.

 

[ripitup911]

Regarding the front bead though, with all the lead techniques you still have to see the front bead/barrel when you shoot though or you wouldn't know how much lead you're using. As in you can't just point and believe the barrel is somewhere you need to actually see the distance between the clay and bead. So I think thats why you need a front bead unless its good weather and you can see the barrel well enough. If you don't reference the bead distance to the clay you'd never get those sight pictures ingrained in your memory.

This is Completly Wrong. If the gun fits you you shouldnt even see your front bead. It should be out of focus and you should only be looking at the target. The point of good gun fit it is that the gun shoots where you look. If at any point your looking at where your bead is in relation to the target your doing it wrong. If you dont beleive me ask any good shotgun coach. Most shotgun coaches will remove the bead for new shooters so they dont get stuck looking at it.

 

[harrygun]

Hmm, how would you know how much lead you're putting on the clay if you can't see your bead/barrel? Most of the professional shooters I've watched on youtube still have their beads, digweeds got his high viz red on his perazzi. Even if you don't use the bead you're probably using the barrel to gauge lead. Mind you I'm talking about peripheral vision, not hard focusing on the bead and trying to line it up with the clay or you'd see two clays.

 

[bdft]

Had an interesting experience shooting trap on Sunday. A very monochromatic day, grey sky, black trees and white snow. For some reason that I haven't quite figured out yet, the orange clays were almost impossible to see. Because you couldn't focus on them they looked tiny and moved at light speed. We switched to white ones and, oddly enough, they slowed right down and looked as big as dinner plates. All because you could focus on them clearly.