Stag 10 vs BCL 102... the unspoken question

My bcl receiver set seems to be ok. There is a noticeable thin spot in the barrel/chamber area but the barrel will cover it up.

I'd like to handle the stag set though before completing my build. I wish it didn't come with a trigger and grip.

EDIT: I think I might be that guy and get both to look at before deciding which to use. When I have both in my possession I'll have my friend with a high quality DSLR camera take some pictures of both.
 
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Anodizing is actually a surface treatment for aluminum. It actually alters the microstructure of the aluminum and creates a very hard "skin" on the surface.
This skin is not something additional to the aluminum, it actually IS the aluminum (oxide, controlled).

Cerakote is a surface application. Totally different.
 
So I fully stripped my BCL 102 upper and lower in preparation for sending it in to get the cerakote blasted off and anodizing. Mine is a gen 1 serial number just over 100.

I am glad I decided to get the upper and lower anodized as the ali is very soft notwithstanding the cerakote which has worn significantly in several areas.

When I received mine the first and only mod other than a gunfighter charging handle was a 3lb Timney that uses two small bolts through the base of the trigger pack to put tension against the lower and on the trigger pins so they don’t fall out. I have installed 3 other Timney trigger packs in other AR rifles and have never seen indents in the Ali from these Timney trigger pack bolts before, and these other AR’s have had the timney triggers removed and installed multiple times.

The indents on the lower from the bolts securing the trigger pack, while likely purely cosmetic in nature and which certainly will not effect function, are quite deep and very noticeable. And before you ask, no these bolts were not screwed down gorilla tight, maybe 5 to 7 inch pounds at most.

The other areas where not just the cerakote has been worn but where the surface of the ali has been indented grooved or worn are from the ejection port cover flipping open, the top of the lower above the buffer tube that the charging handle rides above / against, and from my perspective most importantly, the take down pin holes.

The holes for the takedown pins, moreso the front than the back, have opened up significantly, and with the rifle upper and lower stripped completely but fitted against one another, just inserting the pins you can notice significant front to back and side to side movement.

My advice if you plan on putting a lot of rounds through your BCL is to get is anodized.

I am hoping once anodized and cerakoted or painted I can find some oversize take down pins to prevent / take up the slop.

My 2 cents.
 
The whatever metal Which BCL use for upper and lower is indeed really soft. Few marks already from removing Handguards and normal outings.
 
My BCL 102 shot 1.5 MOA out of box with 168GN Amax. However, it would not eject and now the Bolt is jammed forward in the barrel and won't come loose so I have to wait to hear back from BCL on Monday. I suspect the lugs were misaligned, I noticed this at the range using 180GN round nose 308 but just thought the stickiness was because of the type of projectile.

The overall fit and finish of the BCL 102's parts is fantastic. It just depends on who is putting the thing together at the factory. I'm surprised mine made it past the test firing phase.
 
i've had both rifles. i've been pretty vocal

i've had a gen1 bcl102 full rifle. it shot really well. But if you want to change anything on the rifle, it's at your own risk. BCL changes specs (if they even had a "spec" to begin with) randomly between shipments of the rifle, don't tell anyone of the changes, and they refuse to this day to acknowledge these significant changes as "generations" of the rifle.

the 102 was very crude compared to the stag. The Cerakote was poorly applied, or perhaps the machined surface was poorly finished, you could clearly see machining marks through the Cerakote paint. People other than myself shared photos of bubbling or uneven Cerakote or as well. Tolerance between the upper and lower were quite large in my gen1. They "fixed" the tolerances in the gen2 by making the pins fit so tight that the rifle can't be taken down without tools.

The stag receiver set is flawless. Zero play between the upper and lower without even using the tensioning screw. Comes with a LPK installed with an excellent trigger, much like one of the $70-$90 improved milspec triggers. Comes with a full list of compatible parts, something BCL has straight up refused to supply. The receiver is 7075 anodized, which is incredibly hard. There seems to be a major misunderstanding of what Anodizing vs Cerakote is. Anodizing is a surface finish, you are not adding any material, you are simply altering the chemical structure of the surface of the aluminum to make it very hard via electrolysis. Cerakote is literally just a ceramic paint. Applying Cerakote to unanodized aluminum doesn't do much other than create a ceramic "eggshell" around a soft underlying surface.
 
anodizing is essentially case hardening the aluminum.
In the case of cerakote ..... it is cured in a oven.
Hard anodizing aluminum prior to cerakoting or applying any finish that requires heating the metal for a sustained period is just the correct procedure all around.
Not case hardening/anodizing the aluminum first, in my opinion, allows for the possibilty of a reaction of said untreated aluminum to the heat cure process of the cerakote.
Sounds like a rifle I'm glad I'm never going to own. Dodged a bullet really. After Jay posted his experiences a while back I was all in to get one of these bcl102 rifles after the melee died down and the bugs were worked out. Thankfully Arms East and Stag Arms have come to my rescue. LOL
extremely pleased with the product and service so far, the receiver set is excellent.
 
Mountain out of a mole hill, that’s my take.

AR-10s in general do not fit from one to the other like AR-15s. There is no AR-10 standard. Some here new to these rifles refuse to accept this as being fact.

Case fitment between upper and lower is all about personal preference and means the square root of ##### all in the performance of the rifle. Case in point, I have an SR-25 and LMT MWS, both of which require some mechanical advantage to break apart. I have a number of AR-15s that have wobble and my BCL-102 has no deflection at all and while the pins are tight, I can get them out with just my booger pickers. None of which means squat.

Type III anodizing debate. I’ve beaten the sh!t out of anodized guns and have a C8 with lots of anodizing gone just from being carried and stored poorly, that shows little appreciable wear from actual firing, so anodizing isn’t the end all, be all.
Cerakote and Anodizing are both finishes that both meet or exceed testing that matters; time will tell if the cerakote alone will hold up, but I think it’s in people’s minds that it won’t or can’t.

Machine marks? Again, going back to my SR-25, it has forging marks in the lower. Despite being one of, if not arguably the best rendition of an AR-10 type rifle in existence, those forge marks must mean it’s a POS.

I’m glad Stag came to the party. The more the merrier and competition is good for both the products and the consumers.
 
Mountain out of a mole hill, that’s my take.

AR-10s in general do not fit from one to the other like AR-15s. There is no AR-10 standard. Some here new to these rifles refuse to accept this as being fact.

Case fitment between upper and lower is all about personal preference and means the square root of ##### all in the performance of the rifle. Case in point, I have an SR-25 and LMT MWS, both of which require some mechanical advantage to break apart. I have a number of AR-15s that have wobble and my BCL-102 has no deflection at all and while the pins are tight, I can get them out with just my booger pickers. None of which means squat.

Type III anodizing debate. I’ve beaten the sh!t out of anodized guns and have a C8 with lots of anodizing gone just from being carried and stored poorly, that shows little appreciable wear from actual firing, so anodizing isn’t the end all, be all.
Cerakote and Anodizing are both finishes that both meet or exceed testing that matters; time will tell if the cerakote alone will hold up, but I think it’s in people’s minds that it won’t or can’t.

Machine marks? Again, going back to my SR-25, it has forging marks in the lower. Despite being one of, if not arguably the best rendition of an AR-10 type rifle in existence, those forge marks must mean it’s a POS.

I’m glad Stag came to the party. The more the merrier and competition is good for both the products and the consumers.

Good post. All the top stuff with the AR10/AR308 is very proprietary. KAC/LMT, HK etc. Even in 223 they are. As you mentioned it's like that with almost everything in the AR10 world not just the top end stuff. I don't think a lot of people on here realize that there are 4 mag standards in use for AR308 rifles, with three of them being fairly popular and one having faded out. DPMS/KAC SR25 pattern (which is actually the original AR10 waffle pattern), Armalite AR10b (which are modified M14 based mags), FN FAL mags as used by the Rock Rivers AR308 system which faded into obscurity, and the HK MR308 mag system. This last one is of real note as the DPMS/SR25 mag system won the mag version of the Betamax vs VHS, HD DVD vs Blue ray battle. Yet here we have the newest contract winner for the US semi auto sniper system the M110A1 which is a piston system and uses H&K proprietary mags..
 
Mountain out of a mole hill, that’s my take.

AR-10s in general do not fit from one to the other like AR-15s. There is no AR-10 standard. Some here new to these rifles refuse to accept this as being fact.

You're right. But most modern consumer AR10 manufacturer have adhered to either DPMS or Armalite spec for barrel, BCG, and handguard. Including the 102 and the Stag10. However, for some reason, BCL doesn't want you to know what parts it's rifle can accept, and has gone out of their way to make their rifle less compatible with commonly available, off the shelf DPMS or Armalite AR10 parts. Stag posted their parts list with the genesis of their rifle. Every part except the takedown pins can be swapped for at least one alternative on the market.

Case fitment between upper and lower is all about personal preference and means the square root of ##### all in the performance of the rifle. Case in point, I have an SR-25 and LMT MWS, both of which require some mechanical advantage to break apart. I have a number of AR-15s that have wobble and my BCL-102 has no deflection at all and while the pins are tight, I can get them out with just my booger pickers. None of which means squat.

No. Exact upper/lower fitment has the exact same effect as glass bedding a rifle. It increases repeatability of condition from shot to shot. It's objectively beneficial. Which explains the prevalence of the "accu-wedge" and a big market for "matched pair" receiver sets with zero play priced at $600 USD+.

Type III anodizing debate. I’ve beaten the sh!t out of anodized guns and have a C8 with lots of anodizing gone just from being carried and stored poorly, that shows little appreciable wear from actual firing, so anodizing isn’t the end all, be all.
Cerakote and Anodizing are both finishes that both meet or exceed testing that matters; time will tell if the cerakote alone will hold up, but I think it’s in people’s minds that it won’t or can’t.

Machine marks? Again, going back to my SR-25, it has forging marks in the lower. Despite being one of, if not arguably the best rendition of an AR-10 type rifle in existence, those forge marks must mean it’s a POS.

I’m glad Stag came to the party. The more the merrier and competition is good for both the products and the consumers.

Again, Anodizing and Cerakoting are completely different operations. They are not "both finishes". Anodizing is a surface alteration, it alters surface aluminum chemistry to oxidize and harden, you dunk the aluminum you want to anodize in an electrolytic solution, and run current through the solution with the aluminum piece as your anode. Anodizing does not "wear off". The color from anodizing WILL wear off if the anodizing isn't sealed properly, because anodizing increases the porosity of the surface. That's how you get colored anodized finishes, just by adding dye to the electrolytic bath. Cerakote is a COATING, a baked on ceramic paint. It's color will not fade as easily, but it can chip and scrape off easier, because it's just paint.

The issue was never of objective quality of any particular rifle. This entire debate is about relative quality of the 102 as compared to the Stag10. The Stag is miles ahead in every measurable aspect of quality, includes more parts, and is $200 cheaper than the 102.
 
No. Exact upper/lower fitment has the exact same effect as glass bedding a rifle. It increases repeatability of condition from shot to shot. It's objectively beneficial. Which explains the prevalence of the "accu-wedge" and a big market for "matched pair" receiver sets with zero play priced at $600 USD+.

This is completely, utterly, false.
It's been disproven time and time again.
It is in fact so false, that you posting it as to believing it as fact has me doubting the validity of anything you say.
I mean really, 'glass bedding'? This clearly indicates to me you haven't the foggiest idea about the rifles you are comparing.
So, just one more from the top: Early days of US Army marksmanship use of the m-16 in competition(and yes, that goes for the AR-15 and AR-10 too). They tested and re-tested ideas of what worked in the past on previous rifles, including the notion that 'bedding' between receiver and stock (like done on an M-14 or Remington 700) would work on an AR rifle. They went so far as to mig/tig weld receivers together with no discernible differences. Not bubble gum or mag wedges - they physically through the powers of THOR God of Thunder and lightning, fused the two pieces together at the molecular level. This was done, like you know, 40 years ago or something to that effect, so new info it is not.
If you are buying 'matched' sets of receivers, you are no doubt purchasing some fine components with undoubted attention to detail built into them, but if you think for one second they are giving you any increase in accuracy of the platform, well, you are buying snake oil, son.


Again, Anodizing and Cerakoting are completely different operations. They are not "both finishes". Anodizing is a surface alteration, it alters surface aluminum chemistry to oxidize and harden, you dunk the aluminum you want to anodize in an electrolytic solution, and run current through the solution with the aluminum piece as your anode. Anodizing does not "wear off". The color from anodizing WILL wear off if the anodizing isn't sealed properly, because anodizing increases the porosity of the surface. That's how you get colored anodized finishes, just by adding dye to the electrolytic bath. Cerakote is a COATING, a baked on ceramic paint. It's color will not fade as easily, but it can chip and scrape off easier, because it's just paint.
Who cares if their application is by different method? Who cares that they achieve similar performances and have passed testing that matters by different means?
I don't need you to explain to me what anodizing is. It is a coating, it says so in its specification. And yea, that anodized coating does wear off of aluminum (provided wear is induced), and FYI, type III has no color additive to wear out along with the anodized portion of the coating when you see the silvery shiny bits of your AR. ;)

The issue was never of objective quality of any particular rifle. This entire debate is about relative quality of the 102 as compared to the Stag10. The Stag is miles ahead in every measurable aspect of quality, includes more parts, and is $200 cheaper than the 102.

Well, as you say the relative quality is really what this thread is about.
By undercutting the consumer cost of the BCL product, Stag is certainly in the pole position just on price point alone.
However, I argue this notion that it is 'miles ahead' of BCL in terms of measurable quality.
Aside from costs, no one has provided any tangible proof of this disparity between the two.
Stripped receiver costs, advantage goes to Stag. Completed rifle costs, so far from what I see, gives a marginal advantage to BCL.
There is the anecdotal evidence of poor QC from person to person, first bringing, or should I say dredging up, NEA and by association BCL, and then there are some that appear genuine against BCL, although in fareness to BCL there are probably a few 'QC' issues levelled at the guns from users with the level of understanding about their new purchase that think bedding the two receiver halfs makes a difference...
 
This is completely, utterly, false.
It's been disproven time and time again.
It is in fact so false, that you posting it as to believing it as fact has me doubting the validity of anything you say.
I mean really, 'glass bedding'? This clearly indicates to me you haven't the foggiest idea about the rifles you are comparing.
So, just one more from the top: Early days of US Army marksmanship use of the m-16 in competition(and yes, that goes for the AR-15 and AR-10 too). They tested and re-tested ideas of what worked in the past on previous rifles, including the notion that 'bedding' between receiver and stock (like done on an M-14 or Remington 700) would work on an AR rifle. They went so far as to mig/tig weld receivers together with no discernible differences. Not bubble gum or mag wedges - they physically through the powers of THOR God of Thunder and lightning, fused the two pieces together at the molecular level. This was done, like you know, 40 years ago or something to that effect, so new info it is not.
If you are buying 'matched' sets of receivers, you are no doubt purchasing some fine components with undoubted attention to detail built into them, but if you think for one second they are giving you any increase in accuracy of the platform, well, you are buying snake oil, son.

ad-hominem much?

Get to the point. We don't need your theatrics. If I'm wrong, prove it.

Your anecdotal claim about a test in the 60s, a time when free-floating barrels wasn't even considered of any advantage, is of little relevance to modern precision rifles. Those rifles had clamshell handguards rattling around on their barrels and primitive sighting systems, so any perceivable change in precision would be completely lost to that right off the bat.

If it's been proven over and over, where is your proof?


Who cares if their application is by different method? Who cares that they achieve similar performances and have passed testing that matters by different means?
I don't need you to explain to me what anodizing is. It is a coating, it says so in its specification. And yea, that anodized coating does wear off of aluminum (provided wear is induced), and FYI, type III has no color additive to wear out along with the anodized portion of the coating when you see the silvery shiny bits of your AR. ;)

you are discrediting yourself in your insistence in not understanding the distinction here.

coating implies a material is added. there is no material added in anodizing. it is an altering of the surface material. color change is not an indication of anodizing "wearing off".

anodizing oxidizes aluminum and builds up a 1 thou layer of aluminum oxide. The oxidization also penetrates into the raw aluminum several thousandths of an inch. Even if the surface layer of oxidation were to wear away, there would still be several thousandths of oxidized aluminum on the surface.

Unless your part has literally decreased in dimension from it's unanodized state, the anodization hasn't "worn off".
 
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