Steel Sucks!

[sjemac]

And let's be clear here. Those of us slagging steel seem to be water hunters rather than field hunters. Water hunting is in many ways a very different animal than field hunting in that birds can dive, or glide, or swim away faster than they can be retrieved sometimes. In a field shoot, the hunter or dog can get to a wounded bird faster and can outrun it if needed.

How many times have you seen a goose shot on WildTV that hits the grounds crippled and then the hunter or dog simply runs out and gets it? When you are trying to maneuver a boat or send a dog on water, that crippled goose has a much better chance of getting away. Hence the reason to really anchor birds dead on the wing and for putting a finishing shot into them if there is any doubt.

 

[Lefty Dick]

UMMMMMM.




Reload?




Opposable thumbs allow us to do that.













Seriously. You hit the duck on the wing with one of your first shots and then try to kill it on the water before he swims away. If the duck lays right low to the water (I've seen them swim with just the tip of their beak out of the water) this doesn't leave much of a target to hit and can take multiple shots. Especially if the duck was only wing tipped and landed 40 or more yards out.

Aiming a couple inches BELOW the waterline helps as the shot will strafe the duck. Too many people aim right at the head and then flinch sending the shot over the duck's head to score as a miss.

And the shot that hits the water inches in front of the bird but travels to the bird will hang up in the feathers.

I now see why the "shaken bird syndrome" exists.

I somehow think that equating swatting of birds on the water and the in effectiveness of the shot to penetrate a bird after going through water first, can be a resounding condemnation of steel shot. Your pretty much putting the shot through a process that it was never intended to go through.

Of course the denser lead would go further in water and likely render a killing shot.

Now seeing the perdiciment to all this water hunting, I do indeed feel your pain. What you have for a cost effective solution is beyond me.

I thank my lucky stars we do almost exclusively field hunts.


Now if someone had endeavoured to expound the situation in the first place, we all might have been better served with said information.

 

[sjemac]

And the shot that hits the water inches in front of the bird but travels to the bird will hang up in the feathers.

No. We're seeing the shot hang up in birds that have been shot on the wing and killed by CNS hits too. The head and neck gets perforated but the pellets don't penetrate the body. You wouldn't probably notice it much unless you pluck most of your birds.

I somehow think that equating swatting of birds on the water and the in effectiveness of the shot to penetrate a bird after going through water first, can be a resounding condemnation of steel shot. Your pretty much putting the shot through a process that it was never intended to go through.

Again. Not what we're talking about. Even the HD and lead shot only has minimal penetration in water. Water swats are all about pattern density so that you can hit that thimble sized brain and string of spinal column.

I thank my lucky stars we do almost exclusively field hunts.

Not much variety in fields though. And I've never shot a canvasback out of one either. I personally like the variety of game in the marsh (divers, puddlers, geese, coots, snipe) and the non-game like hawks, skrats, grebes etc.

But field hunts are a lot easier for sure.

 

[sheephunter]

No. We're seeing the shot hang up in birds that have been shot on the wing and killed by CNS hits too. The head and neck gets perforated but the pellets don't penetrate the body. You wouldn't probably notice it much unless you pluck most of your birds.

Possibly my bird count is less than yours but I do manage to rack up several hundred kills in the course of a season and I've seen countless full penetration channels through the body cavity. In truth, it's rare to find a pellet still in a bird. If you are getting pellets that are not penetrating skin on the impact side even on late-season birds in heavy plummage, you are either shooting at centerfire ranges or have some serious velocity issues. At under 40 yards there is no reason not to get complete pass throughs.....lots of energy there and as hard as steel is, it penetrates well....far better than lead at under 40 yards. If there is a complaint about steel, it's that it penetrates too well and does not expand like lead. Finding lead pellets in birds was common because of that expansion but as steel does not expand, pass throughs are the rule and they do occasionally hang up in the far side feathers. The DRT factor with steel may be lower than lead because birds do not receive the shock or energy dump that they did with lead but often bleed to death. Equate to a bow versus a rifle shooting a deer or an FMJ versus pure lead bullet.

 

[sheephunter]

Again. Not what we're talking about. Even the HD and lead shot only has minimal penetration in water. Water swats are all about pattern density so that you can hit that thimble sized brain and string of spinal column.

For water swats you are correct about pattern density but for flying birds, going up in shot size is critical. Two shot sizes larger with steel than lead is the rule. As steel is lighter than lead, you need to go to larger pellets and more speed so it carries the downrange energy to ensure full penetration. Yes, pattern density decreases but for a well practiced shotgunner with a well patterning shotgun, it shouldn't be an issue. Big is better with steel for birds on the wing but there is merit to your water swatting load!

 

[Rockymtnx]

Awwhhh ok so you did drop the duck on the first shot with steel. I was under the impression it took five shots to knock it out of the air.

 

[sealhunter]

Interesting to see that for the most part those with issues with steel, seem to try and take a fast track approach to their hunting,.

First off, who the fick are you sunshine to make such a statement?


Alright, now that's clared up.

We went out this morning and took our limits on geese.
only 5 were dead in the air. 5 more were dead on the ground, and the supplement died however we could get it done effectively, (wringing and a couple swattings, and a couple of taps with the barrel)

We switched to Federal, hmmm, Blackcloud I believe with #2.

First shot, Dad took a snow goose at 40 yrdsround aboutish. The wing actually separated and the bone sticking out. Dead in the air.

I was caught off guard with a canada, and shot him with a 2 3/4 inch #2. He was hit in the head and was daed within seconds.

I shot a mallard at 20 yrds. 3 shots and he was dead.

The #2's Federal out performed the remington #4 nitros by far.

I was very impressed today with these federal shells, and may have found my new shell.

I did however give the birds a shake in the truck, only a few beeds came out,(possibly due to these better shells) not sure if they are caught in feather on the impact side or the other , but will find out when i pluck them.
(I might wait a couple of days if that's ok )

I also must add. Winchester X pert 3 inch shells are the worst shell I have ever fired this year.

Funny add in. Dad has never taken a goose before, (upland huneter through and through) well today he got his goose, and was surprised at how big it was, (I didn't tell him that the Canada was a lesser When he shot the next one I could hear him yelling from the reeds, What the jesus was this was eating!!!! (it was the greater and it was a big one)

 

[sjemac]

For water swats you are correct about pattern density but for flying birds, going up in shot size is critical. Two shot sizes larger with steel than lead is the rule. As steel is lighter than lead, you need to go to larger pellets and more speed so it carries the downrange energy to ensure full penetration. Yes, pattern density decreases but for a well practiced shotgunner with a well patterning shotgun, it shouldn't be an issue. Big is better with steel for birds on the wing but there is merit to your water swatting load!

I have to completely disagree with "the rule" on ducks inside 30 yards. Smaller is better there too. As I've stated before, we shoot 6 steel early and 4 steel later and kill birds DRT nearly every time we hit one. With geese, I see the merits of bigger to a certain extent but even there I would tend to go to 3,5 inch to increase pattern density or ideally go to #2 Hevishot.

 

[sheephunter]

I see the merits of bigger to a certain extent but even there I would tend to go to 3,5 inch to increase pattern density or ideally go to #2 Hevishot.

You must be a rich man!

BB 2 3/4" over decoys is my choice for geese and #2s for ducks. 3.5" shells do have their place for pass shooting no doubt but I'd bet my last dollar that a skilled shooter with a well patterning shotgun could do 90% of his shooting with 2 3/4" steel shells.

As for the #6s......at close ranges they may have their place and glad they work well for you but I still like to put my trust in speed and mass and all of the serious waterfowl hunters/guides that I know agree but if it's working for you, I wouldn't change a thing......

 

[sheephunter]

The #2's Federal out performed the remington #4 nitros by far.

I was very impressed today with these federal shells, and may have found my new shell.

Glad to hear you had a good shoot and got out with your Dad to boot! I've always prefered Federal and Winchester too but guessing much of the Federal advantage on your shoot today could be traced to shot size and not colour of the box they came in.

 

[sjemac]

You must be a rich man!
.

No I just don't have to shoot too many shells to kill a goose.

And I'd be willing to bet that those who nay say 6's never tried them.

 

[pharaoh2]

Well sjemac, you almost have me convinced. If I can ever get over this galdamned bug, I found a box of 2 3/4" #4 and #6 shot. I just might grab the SxS and give er a go again. But if it doesn't work, I blame you!


Oh yeah, and the Remington is coming along this time too.

 

[Lefty Dick]

First off, who the fick are you sunshine to make such a statement?

Who the are you Sealhunter to discount the giving of my opinion.
See that little IMO at the start of my post, well that is where I get off.
I am making an observed opinion, so if that makes you all fired up to use F- Bombs then I guess my opinion is different than yours, so be it.
Get over yourself.

 

[Jericho]

Do you even read these threads Fry or do you just read what you want and then go off half cocked? I'll try typing slower for you. I never said shot didn't fall out from shaking, I just think that Seal's explaination of how the shot got on the feathers is contrary to what I've observed and in the spirit of this messageboard and some of our desires to learn and delve deeper into things, I offered up what I thought was a far more plausible explaination. Read carefully and absorb all the words before replying and you might see what I'm trying to say.......

Not sure why the thread would get locked down other than your irratiional rants about things I never said. Seems to me the rest of us are discussing the proper ways to shoot steel, its limitations compared to lead and its terminal performance and some of the other non-tox alternatives. Despite your attempts to draw me into your childish name-calling, I'm not going to play so maybe time to sit back and take a breath...k?

I thought Seal and I were talking. I'm sure he'll ask for your help if he needs it. From what I've seen so far....he doesn't. Not sure why you think he is incapable of presenting his own facts....you really don't think much of him do you?

Others are here offering their stories, you're saying it's not the case. You're not the duck guru you think you are, so please... you can give it a rest

Just because steel shot basically sucks (the original intent of this thread), somehow you feel it's because we all don't know how to shoot steel or something?

I'm not coming to Seal's aid, so I don't know what you're talking about there... You can quit the paranoia act, no one's trying to get you into a 'name-calling bout'.

Anyways, I strongly think that the 'lead shot ban' should be also an area of consideration in our fight for our firearms rights along with the registry, atc/ccw, etc. Just baffles me sometimes on how people can decide on such BS. Sorta like when .22LR was banned from NL for small game. Yeah, they deemed it too dangerous. It was only a few years ago it was reinstated. If everything keeps going as it is and if CPC doesn't win with a majority, it wouldn't surprise me to see muskets only for waterfowl.

edit:

Whoa boys....!

OH yeah I almost forgot to add my question.
How does one person manage to get 5 shots off at one duck?

First shot broke a wing.

 

[sealhunter]

First off, who the fick are you sunshine to make such a statement?

Who the are you Sealhunter to discount the giving of my opinion.
See that little IMO at the start of my post, well that is where I get off.
I am making an observed opinion, so if that makes you all fired up to use F- Bombs then I guess my opinion is different than yours, so be it.
Get over yourself.

No where in this statement of yours does it say, "IMO or IMHO"
So why bull####.

Interesting to see that for the most part those with issues with steel, seem to try and take a fast track approach to their hunting,

Based on your statement please give your examples that have you assuming a fast track approach to hunting by those with issues with steel

 

[sjemac]

OK I've a hunt lined up for the AM on water. Ducks and geese are both likely.

I will be using

2.75 Federal Speed shok 6's 1 oz. loads at 1375 fps
3.5 inch Federal Black Cloud 4's 1.5 oz. loads at 1500 fps
3 Inch Federal Ultra shok High Density BB's 1 3/8 oz. loads at 1450 fps
3 Inch Federal Speed shok 2's 1 1/4 oz. loads at 1400 fps

I probably won't get a chance to shoot more than two of the above list, depending on conditions. I will post results.

 

[sealhunter]

Black Cloud !!!! Black Cloud!!!

 

[7mmlefty]

A couple years ago , a friend and I went goose hunting opening day, first light, two birds came in. Had steel shot in the Benellis, couple geese came in just under 40 yds. With wings cupped they were comin in and about to land. BANG, BANG,Bang, two geese down, so you'd think.

They stood there, looked around, cackled a bit and took off. Sure as heck we were counting our birds as in the bag, but they thought different, and flew off.

Our strategy changed and decided nothing shot over 30 yds. and got our limits in a short while.
Never got a chance to shake the bird's and see how many BB's fell out.

Steel shot sucks, big time!

Thank the antis in California for the lead shot ban. Unfortunately it's spread up here, based on scientific research done on a few dead birds found to have lead in their gizzards.
They died of other reasons if memory serves me well, but because those three birds had lead in them, they were deemed to have died of lead poisoning. Talk about scientific research?.. Un fortunately lead aint good for you and I'm afraid because of that, the lead ban will stick and would be very difficult to reverse.

Go figure all this hype about lead poisoning. I think it's a bunch of hog wash from a bunch of hog washed anti hunting minds that happen to be in charge of us. My two cents...

 

[Win/64]

Black Cloud !!!! Black Cloud!!!

Federal Black Cloud's will change your mind about steel.

 

[Lefty Dick]

No where in this statement of yours does it say, "IMO or IMHO"
So why bulls**t.




Based on your statement please give your examples that have you assuming a fast track approach to hunting by those with issues with steel

You are right Seal the IMO was at the top of another post in this thread, on that comment I was in error.

As for the comment about fast tracking, well lots of guys are trying this that and the other thing for loads without patterning it first. Kinda bassackwards IMO.
You have to admitt that those who have less issue with steel, seem to have done a lot of ground work before taking to the field, does that not suggest a definite pattern to this whole issue?

You gotta quite being so adversarial you know. Just because a fellow does'nt agree with you or see you tilt on an issue is'nt cause to drop a F-Bomb.