Stopping Power (debate)
- Thread starter canadaman30
- Start date
"Guys like those give hunting a bad name."
No the fact that it looks like there were 6 shots fired in total during the hunt and the 200lb kitty still wasn't dead.
If that big chomper was coming towards any man on this sight I doubt there are many who wouldn't scream. Self included.
I would try to sound less girly though.
That said. He kept fighting and kicking , and that evidenced some good thinking on his part. He didn't just turtle.
No the fact that it looks like there were 6 shots fired in total during the hunt and the 200lb kitty still wasn't dead.
If that big chomper was coming towards any man on this sight I doubt there are many who wouldn't scream. Self included.
I would try to sound less girly though.
That said. He kept fighting and kicking , and that evidenced some good thinking on his part. He didn't just turtle.
I've yet to go to Africa, but that the African guides nickname for Leopards is the spotted chain should tell us something.
I have read accounts of how one of those harmless looking little cats can reward poor marksmanship with 200-300 stitches in 2 to 3 seconds.
Those little cats are not only capable of horrifying damage they are also amazingly vindictive....From what I hear they will actually seek out the shooter.
The guy screaming knows what is coming.
I bet the scream was the least embarrassing part!
Boomer,
Your wife takes some outstanding photographs!
Send her a thanks!
Are you thinking about going back?
I have read accounts of how one of those harmless looking little cats can reward poor marksmanship with 200-300 stitches in 2 to 3 seconds.
Those little cats are not only capable of horrifying damage they are also amazingly vindictive....From what I hear they will actually seek out the shooter.
The guy screaming knows what is coming.
I bet the scream was the least embarrassing part!
Boomer,
Your wife takes some outstanding photographs!
Send her a thanks!
Are you thinking about going back?
Lesson to self-When charged by a leopard wear a full suit of kevlar,and carry a 12guage loaded with as many rounds of 00 buckshot that the gun will hold,
Make sure pants have flap in rear to empty them out after the charge.
- Location
- St. Joe's Island, Ont
After watching that video I'm thinking Mike got up off the ground and punched whoever took that shot that missed his onion by 2 inches right in the mouth.
Screamed like a girl? I don't know, I had a charge from a black bear twice the size of that leopard last year while I was filling my deer feeder and I didn't scream, mind you, it wasn't on top of me sinking it's teeth into my chest either. 3 shots over it's head and he stopped at about 30-40 feet and turned around and walked away. I paid alot more attention next time I went in to fill the feeder. You can't blame the bear though. I was a guy that was foolin around with his supper. I also heard that someone took that bear with a bow not two weeks later about two lots over from me.
Screamed like a girl? I don't know, I had a charge from a black bear twice the size of that leopard last year while I was filling my deer feeder and I didn't scream, mind you, it wasn't on top of me sinking it's teeth into my chest either. 3 shots over it's head and he stopped at about 30-40 feet and turned around and walked away. I paid alot more attention next time I went in to fill the feeder. You can't blame the bear though. I was a guy that was foolin around with his supper. I also heard that someone took that bear with a bow not two weeks later about two lots over from me.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
We are always thinking about it, but I doubt if it will happen any time soon.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Or perhaps shook his hand and thanked him very much.
Good shot placement....we can all agree that it is important, but on a charging animal (like the leopard) just hitting it and stopping the charge would make me happy.
I know, I know, there are many armchair snipers on here who would have used a double rifle and pulled a two headshot 1" group on the running leopard dropping it faster than a bad habit. I'm not one of them!
Most folks tend to prefer big and slow to stop a charge. Just for fun, I would like to mention all the research done on the 5.56 military caliber, and the damage which results from tiny little rounds traveling at high velocity. The rounds don't penetrate well (compared with larger calibers), but the shockwave absolutely destroys living tissue and creates a wound channel much larger than any low velocity round.
So to get the best of both worlds (penetration and a huge shockwave wound), simply take an intermediate or large bore rifle which still pushes bullets at a high velocity, and select a round which is known for being tough and resistant to fragmenting.
I know, I know, there are many armchair snipers on here who would have used a double rifle and pulled a two headshot 1" group on the running leopard dropping it faster than a bad habit. I'm not one of them!
Most folks tend to prefer big and slow to stop a charge. Just for fun, I would like to mention all the research done on the 5.56 military caliber, and the damage which results from tiny little rounds traveling at high velocity. The rounds don't penetrate well (compared with larger calibers), but the shockwave absolutely destroys living tissue and creates a wound channel much larger than any low velocity round.
So to get the best of both worlds (penetration and a huge shockwave wound), simply take an intermediate or large bore rifle which still pushes bullets at a high velocity, and select a round which is known for being tough and resistant to fragmenting.
I haven't been charged by a leopard,but I have been charged by a grizzly.At between 30 yards and 40 yards,I fired at the bear that was on a dead run,and the bullet struck the bear at the base of the throat and stopped along the spine by the rear hip.The bear stopped in it's tracks and turned sideways,then I broke both shoulders with a second shot.The bear was about 400lbs,and I was shooting a 338x8mmremag using a 210gr bullet.I might not be posting this if not for the bullet placement.
killswithkimber
Regular
- Location
- Jaffray BC
The heavier the bullet the more penatration hands down .But when it comes down to actually dropping something in its tracks bullet performance is everything . A 45 70 with a 405 grain pill will penatrate stem to stern and cut one hell of a wound channel but hydrostatic shock and tissue displacement is not apparent . But if you take a faster smaller bore bullet that opens up quickly and penatrates 16-18 inches it will work almost the same due to the fact that it will expell all its energy violently in the animal. But this is a timeless discussion and both have there pro's and con's.
Jamie Frost
Regular
- Location
- Calgary AB
shot placment is everything.Not all leps are shot out of stands- many are tracked and stalked. Sometimes they end up with the rush in the grass that you cannot see.
Everyone thinks that they can shoot an animal betwen the eyes at a dead run with their favorite rifle (or shotgun - which again is frowned upon in many areas) .
In that area of the world you have to remeber that you may have been stalking and looking for 8 hours, you are tired, the sun is killing you, the gras sis up to your armpits, you wonder what is crwling around down there -- any black Mambas??, you are getting dehydrated, the bugs are crawling up your skin, the needle like thorns have stuck through your boots and are firmly imbedded in your legs and arms, you are getting dopey and losing the edge that you had many days ago, you are angry that your rifle and / or ammo is lost and you wonder in the back of your mind if the rifle you borrowed will work or if you will work it the wrong way as its not what you are used to -- then it all happens in 2 seconds
Whether you get mauled, killed, gored, trampled, bit by a snake and die, or look back as an non-event depends on skill, reaction, training, equipment, innate abilities and the grace of your god. I fdind more often then not it is inate abilities mixed with experience of any kind with your rifle and shooting.
The lep video is simply an example. The net is full of other examples (smooth and not so smooth hunts) with many different animals. If that was a 2000 lb cape buffalo coming at you through the grass, you would not be calling it a kitty (a lep is no where near a kitty - they are a chain saw running at full speed) and your "girlish" scream will likely be your last.
YYYY - ya i happen to agree that not everyone should hunt- but they do. I also see how many think they are prepared because of their "training" but they have no idea on how to train or prepare for the different field of operations. I have seen individuals appear wanting to set up their super dooper mag with 25x scope and think they will just set up on high ground and pick the eye out of --- whatever animal --- at 500 yds cause that is what they are trained to do. They are very chagrined to learn it likely wont happen that way. fast, instictive shooting is the norm.
The original thread was about stopping power -- velocity vs. mass. It went to marksmanship pretty quickly. Again - if you dont hit anything it does no good. So I assume that you do hit where you hope to.
Mass vs. velocity for stopping power is still the question. For deer sized animals I take high velocity rapid expandig bullets. Anything larger I opt for slower speeds and larger then caliber bullets. If you hunt North America any 30-06 or similar with quality bullets is plenty.
as an aside -- all the cats I have ever seen killed are eaten by the locals. NOTHING goes to waste. The cats all kill livestock, people and game animals. As for leps - they reproduce like any barn cats. Boomer is absolutely right where many cats are taken in the last few months or year of their lives and they are getting foolish when it comes to finding food. They cant compete with the younger cats- they are beat up and teeth are broken. You take it out of the chain and there are many more to take its place.
The funny thing is that in many parts of the world they view our shooting of coyotes and wolfs as a horrible thing. How many here refuse to shoot a coyote or wolf? I am sure there are some here on line - but no one that I know.
The video is not meant to be some argument in favor of this or that - only an illustration of the activity that can occur.
rant now over
Everyone thinks that they can shoot an animal betwen the eyes at a dead run with their favorite rifle (or shotgun - which again is frowned upon in many areas) .
In that area of the world you have to remeber that you may have been stalking and looking for 8 hours, you are tired, the sun is killing you, the gras sis up to your armpits, you wonder what is crwling around down there -- any black Mambas??, you are getting dehydrated, the bugs are crawling up your skin, the needle like thorns have stuck through your boots and are firmly imbedded in your legs and arms, you are getting dopey and losing the edge that you had many days ago, you are angry that your rifle and / or ammo is lost and you wonder in the back of your mind if the rifle you borrowed will work or if you will work it the wrong way as its not what you are used to -- then it all happens in 2 seconds
Whether you get mauled, killed, gored, trampled, bit by a snake and die, or look back as an non-event depends on skill, reaction, training, equipment, innate abilities and the grace of your god. I fdind more often then not it is inate abilities mixed with experience of any kind with your rifle and shooting.
The lep video is simply an example. The net is full of other examples (smooth and not so smooth hunts) with many different animals. If that was a 2000 lb cape buffalo coming at you through the grass, you would not be calling it a kitty (a lep is no where near a kitty - they are a chain saw running at full speed) and your "girlish" scream will likely be your last.
YYYY - ya i happen to agree that not everyone should hunt- but they do. I also see how many think they are prepared because of their "training" but they have no idea on how to train or prepare for the different field of operations. I have seen individuals appear wanting to set up their super dooper mag with 25x scope and think they will just set up on high ground and pick the eye out of --- whatever animal --- at 500 yds cause that is what they are trained to do. They are very chagrined to learn it likely wont happen that way. fast, instictive shooting is the norm.
The original thread was about stopping power -- velocity vs. mass. It went to marksmanship pretty quickly. Again - if you dont hit anything it does no good. So I assume that you do hit where you hope to.
Mass vs. velocity for stopping power is still the question. For deer sized animals I take high velocity rapid expandig bullets. Anything larger I opt for slower speeds and larger then caliber bullets. If you hunt North America any 30-06 or similar with quality bullets is plenty.
as an aside -- all the cats I have ever seen killed are eaten by the locals. NOTHING goes to waste. The cats all kill livestock, people and game animals. As for leps - they reproduce like any barn cats. Boomer is absolutely right where many cats are taken in the last few months or year of their lives and they are getting foolish when it comes to finding food. They cant compete with the younger cats- they are beat up and teeth are broken. You take it out of the chain and there are many more to take its place.
The funny thing is that in many parts of the world they view our shooting of coyotes and wolfs as a horrible thing. How many here refuse to shoot a coyote or wolf? I am sure there are some here on line - but no one that I know.
The video is not meant to be some argument in favor of this or that - only an illustration of the activity that can occur.
rant now over
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
While I prefer heavy for caliber bullets, my testing has shown otherwise. Assuming similar construction, I found that the penetration of the faster lighter bullet equals that of the slower heavier bullet, assuming no bullet failure. Wound volume is another thing. The heavier lead core bullets produce much larger wound volumes than the lighter bullets. The exception to this rule are the various forms of the X bullet. Because these bullets all have roughly the same depth of hollow point within caliber regardless of weight, the wound volume remains unchanged between light and heavy bullets. In contrast, as weight increases, the length of the lead core increases, and expansion results in a larger frontal area which in turn produces a larger wound volume.
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Well said.You don't know how you will react in a given situation,until you have been in that situation.And let's face it,you might not always react in the same way to a given situation.I have been charged by one grizzly,and I was able to not panic,and make my shot count.Hopefully,I will not find myself in that situation again,because there is no way to know if the results will be the same next time.Unless you are a PH,it is very unlikely that you will ever be charged enough times by dangerous animals to condition yourself to being charged by animals.And even then, PHs do get killed from time to time.
Here is a picture of stopping power/bullet performance for you the picture doesn't show the true size of the bear it was appr 1000 lbs...
.375" 300gr Partition impact velocity was appr 2250fps entrance hole on the other side of the rib cage was appr 3" exit 5" - 6" the bullet also entered/exited the front quarter bear still made it 75 yards before crashing...
I don't need no TSX...
and yes my Cheaspeake Bay Retriever goes everywhere with me...
.375" 300gr Partition impact velocity was appr 2250fps entrance hole on the other side of the rib cage was appr 3" exit 5" - 6" the bullet also entered/exited the front quarter bear still made it 75 yards before crashing...
I don't need no TSX...
and yes my Cheaspeake Bay Retriever goes everywhere with me...
We started to save for Tanzania two years ago....Not sure where we will go now. If the economy comes back we might go next year. I want one cape buff and plains game for 21 days, but my wife wants to travel around more. Do you think 14 days is enough?...This is a one time thing.
Most people say its a one time thing and then they go back.....It is awfully expensive to do twice!
