STORE ASKING FOR A PAL NUMBER FOR A FLASHLIGHT ORDER !!….

[Trimmer 905]

This is the first time for me ranting about a business online, but this has to be mentioned ….it borders the ridiculous. I called this store yesterday to ask if they could ship a flashlight that I wanted to order overnight by ups as I a was leaving for a business trip 2 days later. They said sure, leave a note when you order and call us back. So, I place the order, and my damn shipping address is the same as the billing address of my credit card. I call the next day, we figure out the details , and everything seems fine. I get a call about 30 minutes later asking me to either provide a PAL number with a date of birth to supposedly verify my identity with the RCMP, or pay them with EMT because it’s a first order with them….or they will just cancel the order ! …I ended up cancelling the order, I find ridiculous to ask that type of information to supposedly protect you against fraud for a 400$ order , given that the shipping address is the same as the credit card billing address . Compete jon sense , and trying to collect way more than required .


Hi Nazim,

The following note has been added to your order:


As a reminder, here are your order details:

[Order #628720] (November 19, 2024)​

Product​	Quantity​	Price​
SureFire EDC2-DFT High-Candela Everyday Carry LED Flashlight - Gray​	1​	$375.99​
Subtotal:​	$375.99​
Shipping:​	$10.00 via UPS - Flat Rate​
GST:​	$19.30​
Payment method:​	Credit Card​
Total:​	$405.29​
Note:​	Please use same credit card and ship UPS OR FEDEX overnight ( 1 day. I need to have the light by Wednesday evening, I’m travelling overseas on Thursday .​

I wouldn't be dealing with any company that demands a PAL for a simple flashlight. A chance of fraud or not,asking for such a personal piece of identification for a simple purchase is outrageous. That ranks right up there with your SIN. Besides,the same flaslight can be purchased on-line from Amazon. Guaranteed,they won't ask for a PAL. It's cheaper,too.

 

[Trademark]

Nope

I wasn’t condoning it just explaining how it clearly would be fool proof after someone asked how it would help. It took me years before I would even give princess auto my phone number haha

 

[Trademark]

I just bought a flashlight from Tenda, they didn't ask me for my PAL? Guess I'm special. Seemless purchase. And shipping by UPS works great to me.

It’s probably only for high end smaller items that can be quickly resold online for 2/3 their value and shipped

 

[Gopo]

This is the first time for me ranting about a business online, but this has to be mentioned ….it borders the ridiculous. I called this store yesterday to ask if they could ship a flashlight that I wanted to order overnight by ups as I a was leaving for a business trip 2 days later. They said sure, leave a note when you order and call us back. So, I place the order, and my damn shipping address is the same as the billing address of my credit card. I call the next day, we figure out the details , and everything seems fine. I get a call about 30 minutes later asking me to either provide a PAL number with a date of birth to supposedly verify my identity with the RCMP, or pay them with EMT because it’s a first order with them….or they will just cancel the order ! …I ended up cancelling the order, I find ridiculous to ask that type of information to supposedly protect you against fraud for a 400$ order , given that the shipping address is the same as the credit card billing address . Compete jon sense , and trying to collect way more than required .


Hi Nazim,

The following note has been added to your order:


As a reminder, here are your order details:

[Order #628720] (November 19, 2024)​

Product​	Quantity​	Price​
SureFire EDC2-DFT High-Candela Everyday Carry LED Flashlight - Gray​	1​	$375.99​
Subtotal:​	$375.99​
Shipping:​	$10.00 via UPS - Flat Rate​
GST:​	$19.30​
Payment method:​	Credit Card​
Total:​	$405.29​
Note:​	Please use same credit card and ship UPS OR FEDEX overnight ( 1 day. I need to have the light by Wednesday evening, I’m travelling overseas on Thursday .​

Stay away from that business

 

[seamus]

I had the same thing happen with a scope. Didn’t really bother me none, I would have been annoyed if they were asking for a picture of it though, but just the # isn’t a big deal to me.

 

[Munkey1973]

I bought a Surefire from FOC this time last year. Same thing, I was asked for PAL as anti-fraud. I thought is was down right weird, but did it anyways.

If a guy doesn't like it, he can always vote with his dollars and take business elsewhere.

 

[demopeng]

I will absolutely not support a business who collects and stores more of my private information than they need to.
People who support stores like this are begging to have their information leaked online for others to use for fraud.

 

[demopeng]

I had to supply a PAL or DL or something to buy a scope from one of our sponsors recently. Same reason- fraud concerns.

There are lots of good retail sponsors on CGN who will price match without extorting you to provide unnecessary private information that they have no business collecting (which will in due time be leaked/hacked and used against you). No reason to give any $$ to those "over compliers".

 

[JeffMan]

Hey JeffMan,

I'm pretty sure you are a Police Constable? And I'm pretty sure you know very well that a business cannot use fraud to protect themselves from fraud.

Using the CFP or CFC to check out ones identity is fraud, it wasn't designed for this purpose. It was designed to confirm the validity of ones PAL while purchasing a firearm in Canada.

You obviously support Tenda to the enth degree by spending lot's of money with them. Your words. And that's great for you.

I too am a retired law enforcement officer with over 25 years of service. Now would I support a business that is using fraud to protect themselves from fraud? Not even maybe! I do not care how cheap their items are to buy.

I look forward to your rebuttal and or response. It would be difficult for me or anyone else I would think, to swallow, knowing a Police Officer has no problem with businesses breaking the law for personal gain....

Thunderhog

Hmmm… I never thought of it like that.

Looking at what the PAL verification system for business can be used for, it looks like the reason Tenda is using it is not listed. This, doesn’t mean that accessing it for other purchases is fraud.

It could be missuse of a government database or computer system - that would likely be in the fine print of the agreement between the business and the government agency.

I don’t have access to that document, do you?

I don’t see any warnings that using the RCMP PAL verification system to verify ID’s, and addresses for purchasing items other then firearms, constitutes an explicit offense.

All the above being said, I think you’d have problems laying a fraud charge as Mens rea would be difficult, if not impossible to prove.

If what your saying is true, wouldn’t
Unauthorized use of a computer
Section 342.1 of the Criminal Code more applicable?

I don’t think there is a fraud charge here. Do you?

 

[Thunderhog]

There are lots of good retail sponsors on CGN who will price match without extorting you to provide unnecessary private information that they have no business collecting (which will in due time be leaked/hacked and used against you). No reason to give any $$ to those "over compliers".

Both of your statements in post #67 and #68 are spot on. People are looking for trouble by giving out personal information for no good reason.

One day this will bite folks in the @ss.

 

[Thunderhog]

Hmmm… I never thought of it like that.

Looking at what the PAL verification system for business can be used for, it looks like the reason Tenda is using it is not listed. This, doesn’t mean that accessing it for other purchases is fraud.

It could be missuse of a government database or computer system - that would likely be in the fine print of the agreement between the business and the government agency.

I don’t have access to that document, do you?

I don’t see any warnings that using the RCMP PAL verification system to verify ID’s, and addresses for purchasing items other then firearms, constitutes an explicit offense.

All the above being said, I think you’d have problems laying a fraud charge as Mens rea would be difficult, if not impossible to prove.

If what your saying is true, wouldn’t
Unauthorized use of a computer
Section 342.1 of the Criminal Code more applicable?

I don’t think there is a fraud charge here. Do you?

Well it's funny you should ask. I contacted our local Canadian Firearms Officer this morning in Summerland, BC. This office controls our area in the Kootenays. He stated a business firearms license is issued to allow the business owner and it's employees to have access to the Canadian Firearms Center, and allow the sale of firearms, ammunition and firearms parts/accessories. All the employees names need to be attached to this license in order to contact them and check for a buyers license. He stated it was designed to confirm a persons PAL validity when purchasing firearms and in some instances, ammunition and or firearm magazines/parts.

When asked if a business was allowed to contact the CFC for proof of identity for credit card fraud, he stated absolutely not. He advise that any business that uses this personal information for anything other than it was designed for would lead to a fine, or in some cases a cancelation of that said business license. (BFL)

So it was as I originally figured, it is a type of fraud to use the CFC information for the reason Tenda was using it for. I did not mention the business name as I was not involved in their nefarious acts.

Hopefully Tenda will read these various posts and realize they are in fact breaking the law. It would be up to the individual involved to file a complaint with their local Canadian Firearms Officer or not.

If Tenda ignores this now new information that has come to light, or any other business that plays this ridiculous game, I hope they have their BFL revoked, and receive a huge fine. We do not need an authoritarian narrative to thrive in Canada.

Yes Trudy socks is a criminal and should be behind bars. But if we do our part, at least we may be able to slow down the communistic regime Trudy and Singh are selling.

 

[IvoB]

your money your choice on who gets it

 

[Thunderhog]

Jeffman, my comments were in no way a personal attack on you. Thanks for not thinking it was.

You and I both know there are a lot more law enforcement officers these days that think they are above the law. Obviously, you are one of the good guys. I too followed this narrative for my entire career. It allows one to sleep at night with a clear conscience.

 

[JeffMan]

Well it's funny you should ask. I contacted our local Canadian Firearms Officer this morning in Summerland, BC. This office controls our area in the Kootenays. He stated a business firearms license is issued to allow the business owner and it's employees to have access to the Canadian Firearms Center. All the employees names need to be attached to this license in order to contact them and check for a buyers license. He stated it was designed to confirm a persons PAL validity when purchasing firearms and in some instances', ammunition and or firearm magazines/parts.

When asked is a business was allowed to contact the CFC for proof of identity for credit card fraud, he stated absolutely not. He advise that any business that uses this personal information for anything other than it was designed for would lead to a fine, or in some cases a cancelation of that said business license.

So it was as I originally figured, it is a type of fraud to use the CFC information for the reason Tenda was using it for. I did not mention the business name as I was not involved in their nefarious acts.

Hopefully Tenda will read these various posts and realize they are in fact breaking the law. It would be up to the individual involved to file a complaint with their local Canadian Firearms Officer or not.

If Tenda ignores this now new information that has come to light, or any other business that plays this ridiculous game, I hope they have their BFL revoked, and receive a huge fine. We do not need an authoritarian narrative to thrive in Canada.

Yes Trudy socks is a criminal and shoud be behind bars. But if we do our part, at least we may be able to slow down the communistic regime Trudy and Singh are selling.

well there you have it.

I appreciate your research on the topic (no sarcasm)

I know you and I (you retired, me active) would have our feet held to the fire for accessing a government database while unauthorized.

I enjoyed the discussion.

 

[Suther]

Both of your statements in post #67 and #68 are spot on. People are looking for trouble by giving out personal information for no good reason.

One day this will bite folks in the @ss.

Do you refuse to give your PAL to online retailers for gun sales?

Same level of risk. If it's too risky for a flashlight why not for a firearm too? Best to just shop in person. Oh wait! They record PAL info for that too...


It is smart to protect your personal info. But you're acting like this is the only time people are giving out their PAL info. For anyone who buys online, especially in the volume most people on CGN buy guns and ammo, your info is already out there in many places. I bet the majority of people in this thread have already provided Tenda their PAL for cheap ammo.

 

[scianna54]

Paying with credit card online does not equal the business having your money. And no, giving them your PAL info does not equal you giving them your SIN number.

Why not just EMT them the funds?

 

[Thunderhog]

Do you refuse to give your PAL to online retailers for gun sales?

Same level of risk. If it's too risky for a flashlight why not for a firearm too? Best to just shop in person. Oh wait! They record PAL info for that too...


It is smart to protect your personal info. But you're acting like this is the only time people are giving out their PAL info. For anyone who buys online, especially in the volume most people on CGN buy guns and ammo, your info is already out there in many places. I bet the majority of people in this thread have already provided Tenda their PAL for cheap ammo.

I do not buy firearms online for the same reason, I would not give out my PAL number for a flashlight either. The risk is too great to be giving out personal information over the phone, or the internet. I would travel directly to the retailer if I was buying any firearms. The good news is I'm not in the market to buy any firearms, I do not need any new guns at the moment. And I am actually selling a few rifles right now.

Your are correct in stating one needs to protect your personal information, scammers are in the millions these days......

Not all firearms dealers actually record your information, most do, some do not. And I will not debate this with you because I know you are a do-gooder and possibly a Liberal. Or at least you love to spew Liberal/NDP rhetoric.

Tenda can kiss my @ss, they will never see a dime from me. Tenda breaks the law, period. Chew on this for a while Suther.

Committing fraud to protect ones self from fraud is fraud, and is against the law. I hope someone reports these idiots and they loose their BFL. And no, it will not be me, I do not have skin in this game.

But for someone who loves to spew all the laws in the country, you obviously did not read my post at #71.

Tenda breaks the law, chew on that!.....

 

[Suther]

But for someone who loves to spew all the laws in the country, you obviously did not read my post at #71.

Tenda breaks the law, chew on that!.....

Yes. I like to make sure people know what the law is. What they do with that information is up to them. Do I follow the law to a tee? Maybe. Maybe not. But I think it is wise to at least KNOW the law before deciding how to proceed, because as they say, ignorance of the law is no defense. Knowledge is Power.

I do not buy firearms online for the same reason

Well good on you for sticking to your standards. Of course stores are still recording your PAL info and storing it for 20 years, or they're breaking the law... But its not my business on the line so they can do whatever they want. I wonder how often the CFO actually checks to see if this info is being recorded...

 

[Thunderhog]

Yes. I like to make sure people know what the law is. What they do with that information is up to them. Do I follow the law to a tee? Maybe. Maybe not. But I think it is wise to at least KNOW the law before deciding how to proceed, because as they say, ignorance of the law is no defense. Knowledge is Power.



Well good on you for sticking to your standards. Of course stores are still recording your PAL info and storing it for 20 years, or they're breaking the law... But its not my business on the line so they can do whatever they want. I wonder how often the CFO actually checks to see if this info is being recorded...

An unjust law created by a corrupt government that breaks it's own laws, and ethical laws every day, is no law at all, sorry.

An unjust law is no law.

Tomorrow Trudy could wake up with a hair up his @ss and revoke all the Canadian Firearms Licenses in Canada. This would make every firearm owner in Canada a criminal overnight. I would bet you would be the first one to turn in all your guns. By one pecker-head making up bullsh1t rules, it could change the entire legality of owning guns in Canada.

You are a do-gooder, and good for you. I am not, I served my country for over 25 years, I will not stand by and be placed in a cattle car headed out to be euthanized. Trudy loves to murder Canadians with his MAID program, it has become the 6th largest reason for deaths in Canadians. He also likes to kill veterans. It's cheaper than giving them more money. Trudy's words were, "we have given all we can give", what a crock of sh1t!

So you spew your bullsh1t rules as you want to keep us all informed. I feel so much safer when you do this!.....

I hope Pierre Poilievre changes all the ridiculous laws that the current corrupt Liberal/NDP coalition has created. I hope he changes the entire Federal Firearms Act, and I hope he reverses the stupid OIC and allows Canadians again to buy/sell/trade handguns. These laws are created to protect corrupt politicians, not to keep Canadians safe.

 

[Suther]

Tomorrow Trudy could wake up with a hair up his @ss and revoke all the Canadian Firearms Licenses in Canada. This would make every firearm owner in Canada a criminal overnight. I would bet you would be the first one to turn in all your guns.

It would be so nice to spend ONE DAY on CGN without people making up a strawman about me... its really pathetic.